Condensation in walls

[EatenByLimestone]

A few years ago my father had a leak in the flashing above his front closet. The flashing was fixed, but the plaster and such in the closet was never fixed. It was coming down, but since the door stayed closed he wasn't too worried about it.

Now I have the house and didn't like the hole in the plaster/gypsum boars or plaster coming down all over coats and such and decided to pull it out and insulate the open spaces between the studs.

I started pulling the old stuff out and found along the very top, a little bit of condensation along the seam with the outside wall. While it's open I'll let it dry out, but how do I keep the condensation from forming in the first place? Will insulation with a good vapor barrier do it? I'm positive the water is not coming from the outside because it's under the overhang. Any outside water would have to defy physics or at least have a pretty strong wind in order to get up there, get through the clapboards, and then through the sheathing.

Matt

 

[gzecc]

Need a picture of the exterior and interior.

 

[EatenByLimestone]

Coming up!

The closet is to the left of the front door and there is absolutely no insulation in the walls.

For the inside shot you can see the sides and the front. The condensation is at the corners. The side walls look a bit wet in the pic, but are dry. The water in the center bays is noticeably colder than the wood beside it.

The hole in the old gypsum board/plaster was about half way up the wall under the bays with water.

Also, I punctured the tar paper a few times tearing out the old plaster. Should I tape over any tears?

Matt

 

[gzecc]

How old is the roof. How much slope to it? Have the gutters been cleaned? Can you get up into the attic space above the closet doorway area? At least to see it with a flashlight?

 

[EatenByLimestone]

Roof is about 7 years old and in great shape. The pitch is 9/12. Gutters have not been cleaned this year and are probably full. The silver maple hasn't finished dropping it's leaves yet. The gutters are off the house a good half inch though. I don't think water is being pushed into the house.

I may be able to squeeze into that area of the attic to see with a flashlight in the daytime. I'd have to move a bunch of crap to get into that area though. What did you want me to look for?

Matt

 

[gzecc]

There are two most likely issues to cause your problem. An exterior leak coming into the structure or a non insulated area above the door/closet area which is causing condensation because of lack of insulation or proper building practices.
Where the heated area (living space) meets the unconditioned space (attic) there will be condensation if it is not put together correctly. Is that closet close to a radiator or stove? Is the attic space conditioned?

 

[fishingpol]

Matt,
Is there any way you can blow a fan into the closet or set up a de-humidifier in the closet area. I would like to see the area dried out and during the next rainstorm see if there is moisture problem again. I would lean towards an exterior water leak. You have an overhang on the front, but what about the side to the left of the picture. Has any wind-driven rain pushed against the house? You can also do a wet test with a hose. Start spraying on the roof, check inside and then the siding. Water can migrate sideways along the top plate of a wall.

I'm curious, is there sheathing on the other side of the tar paper? In all my years of renovating and opening walls, I have never seen tar paper on the inside. Usually, condensation happens if the interior is warm and has moisture in the air and the outside is cold. This time of year tends to be dry inside and out unless a warm front pushes up from the south pulling humidity with it. I'd look for an outside leak. Damn nor'easters can blow rain sideways in this area.

Jon

 

[benjamin]

since gzecc is giving you a hard time about a roof or gutter leak, I'll just buy that it's not a rain water leak.

The other possibility is that the more humid interior air is leaking into the attic and condensing on the bottom of the roof. Simply drywalling and taping the closet will be enough to eliminate the issue if there is adequate attic ventilation which isn't likely from the picture of the outside.

The best things you can do are air sealing, cellulose insulation in the walls and ceiling, and improve the attic ventilation.

 

[fishingpol]

I'm going to poke the fire here some. I don't see any evidence of mold or mildew. If you have a constant condensation issue, you would probably see some nasty stuff growing there. Occasional water intrusions tend to dry out if there is some air circulation. Insulation can trap moisture and lead to mold issues. Repeat or constant moisture gives you the big "m" word. Dry the area out and see if it returns on it's own or with a rain event.

 

[soupy1957]

Lemme take a shot in the dark here.............is there a fan in the bathroom? Is it (the fan) TRULY vented to the outside?

Our house, built in 1957, has a ceiling fan in the upstairs bathroom that was NOT vented to the outside, and was causing condensation and rot in the attic. We vented it, repaired the damage, and the problem went away.

-Soupy1957

 

[EatenByLimestone]

Lots of posts here, I'll try to answer as best I can.

gzecc,

Lack of insulation and improper building practices could be here. The insulation was blown in by my father in the late 70s/early 80s. I have a few cold spots in other areas that will get a tad of condensation and I suspect it is from patchy insulation. As far as building practices, the house is a post war cape and was built as cheaply as possible. There was only one water cutoff for the house, nothing under the sinks, etc. The were only 2 circuits when the house was wired. Who knows what else is hidden. The closet is not close to a source of heat and the attic is unconditioned. I'm looking to finish it off in the next few years.

Fishingpol,

I was wrong about the tar paper. I got up and felt it and it's tar impregnated particle board of some sort. I was thinking of bringing the dehumidifer up from the basement. I think we're supposed to get rain next week too.

Benjamin,

I'm hoping that insulating and taping would be enough, but the last thing I want to do is close up a wall that has an issue. I have a ridge vent, but no soffit venting. I wasn't planning on tackling that until next summer, but may be doing it sooner now. Does anybody have anything against the holesaw and vented plug method?

Fishingpol,

There was a hole in the plaster/gypsum board. Warm, wet air could have made it's way into there and I doubt there was much convection drying it out... especially in a closed closet with a bunch of winter coats in it. I'll move the humidifier up and find out how well it dries out. The rain should tell us if it's an outside leak in the next few days.

Soupy,

There is a bathroom fan that is truly vented out the opposite side of the house. It wasn't original to the house, my father installed it. I have wondered how much humidity is left in the house after the fan is run for a while though.

Matt

 

[btuser]

Lemme take a shot in the dark here.............is there a fan in the bathroom? Is it (the fan) TRULY vented to the outside?

-Soupy1957

That's what I was thinking. It might be rolling down the sheathing and collecting there. If there was a passage to the outside at that point I could see condensation but then I'd think I'd see it through the whole cavity.

 

[btuser]

Just re-read the posts and I think it may just have been the hole in the plaster giving you the cold zone, but how much air movement should a closet get? It happens around outlets and stuff so why not I guess. When you re-drywall install 6mm plastic over the insulation, that way any moisture that gets past it will continue out instead of getting trapped in the insulation. I've wrung water out of insulation when the house had an exterior vapor barrior added during re-siding.

 

[gzecc]

Make sure the blown in insulation didn't go into the soffit. Insulate the closet wall and cieling from the attic. Try to bring outdoor air into that soffit and attic area through venting the soffit. If you live in a cold climate you will have ice daming this winter and the saga will continue. Better hurry!

 

[EatenByLimestone]

The easiest way to do that in the immediate area would be to pull the closet ceiling down. Not a big deal as it needs to be redone anyway. I'll put up fiberglass batts in there while everything is down. What do you guys think of polystyrene under the fiberglass batts? I'm not much into high ceilings, and in a closet it seems even sillier. Lowering it down a few inches will only increase the insulation up there.

The closet appears to be dry. I removed a good deal of water from the closet/front room area. I'll let it run the rest of the day and then post a pic tonight. I might get a dehumidifier for the ground floor. The one for the basement is a bit loud.


Matt

 

[webbie]

I have had two houses which had condensation problems up high - as high as the 2nd floor, which related to excess moisture in the basement and/or crawl space.

Please make certain you condition any basement or crawl below this area to 50% or less humidity.

 

[EatenByLimestone]

I had never thought of the humidity coming up... I'll have to run the dehumidifier downstairs more.

Here is a pic of the same area dry. Rain is on the way for tomorrow and wednesday.

Matt

 

[fishingpol]

Is your de-humidifier a digital one that reads the humidity level? If so, you could set it up in different rooms and run it for a few minutes to see what your levels are. As far as the hole type soffit vents, they work fine. Just be sure that the insulation is not crammed in the attic where the soffits are. You can buy foam propa-vents and staple them to the underside of the roof sheathing between the rafters down at the soffits to make an air channel and then push the insulation back up to it. I notice that on recent frosty mornings when there is frost on roofs, the poorly insulated houses have melted the frost off. They have no idea how much heat they are losing.

 

[EatenByLimestone]

Unfortunately it doesn't have anything that fancy on it.

Matt

 

[EatenByLimestone]

Ok, we've had a few days of steady rain where we probably had around an inch. Everything is still dry inside. This weekend I'm going to insulate and try to get it closed up. The wife wants to see cedar inside so she can store her coats and stuff happily. This seems reasonable to me and fairly easy to do. Does anybody see a problem with using something like 1/2" ply over the insulation and under the cedar? It would make screwing a coat rack or putting shelves in much easier and stronger than drywall.

Matt

 

[fishingpol]

Matt,

Hope everything stays dry now. Two recommendations:

1.) Put up insulation and plastic over it before drywall.

2.) I believe building code require some sort of drywall up first and one coat of tape and mud. They pooh-pooh on putting wood-type paneling up against wood framing as a fire could spread up faster to the framing. Maybe 1/2 drywall tape/mud and then plywood and cedar.