Confusion: Fireplace liner requirements

[mainerr]

I have had a stove shop out a few years ago, and a chimney professional recently. They each gave me the advice that I should run a steel liner up the length of the chimney.

I was quoted $1,200.

Today while reading the Jotul F3 user manual I saw this diagram and description of a fireplace installation, which contradicts the advice given by each of the businesses.

What's right?

 

[bholler]

I have had a stove shop out a few years ago, and a chimney professional recently. They each gave me the advice that I should run a steel liner up the length of the chimney.

I was quoted $1,200.

Today while reading the Jotul F3 user manual I saw this diagram and description of a fireplace installation, which contradicts the advice given by each of the businesses.

What's right?

Well both are right what the manual shows is called a direct connect and it is the minimum required by code. But it is not the best or even what I would call the right way to do it. A full insulated liner will perform better be safer and be much easier to maintain than a direct connect. Also many fireplace flues are more that the allowed 3 times the volume of the 6" exhaust that is on your stove so in those cases a direct connect would not meet code.

 

[Dustin]

I wouldn't take shortcuts. Unless you know for SURE your chimney is up to code (most are not) line it.

 

[mainerr]

Thanks for the input. I am going to line it.

Will search the forums on DIY vs. hiring it out.

 

[Easy Livin’ 3000]

Thanks for the input. I am going to line it.

Will search the forums on DIY vs. hiring it out.

DIY is hard, but doable. Easiest with a flat roof, easy access, and a large straight existing flue. It gets harder with a high pitched roof and/ or a flue that is tight or bendy.

You decide to do it, ask your questions here, lots of experts eager to provide guidance and moral support.

If you decide to hire it out, come here for second opinions. First question to ask the installer is whether the intend to insulate the liner. If they say it's not necessary, come back here to ask for some thoughts.

Good luck.

 

[mainerr]

DIY is hard, but doable. Easiest with a flat roof, easy access, and a large straight existing flue. It gets harder with a high pitched roof and/ or a flue that is tight or bendy.

You decide to do it, ask your questions here, lots of experts eager to provide guidance and moral support.

If you decide to hire it out, come here for second opinions. First question to ask the installer is whether the intend to insulate the liner. If they say it's not necessary, come back here to ask for some thoughts.

Good luck.

My house is an aframe / chalet style and access is not easy. That was my biggest unknown and the primary reason I was going to hire it out.

Here are the facts from the estimate / proposal:

0. Fixed bid at $1,150.
1. Property owner is responsible for all permits and code issues relating to the work.
2. Damper will be trimmed, rendered unusable (easiest / cheapest path).
3. Install 6" flex steel liner from 'New England Chimney Supply', called 'Best Flex'. Unsure of the model #. Here are a few examples of the product specifications http://www.messickstove.com/products/chimneys--liners/best-flex-l-chimney-liner.html , http://www.messickstove.com/products/chimneys--liners/best-flex-crossover-chimney.html
4. Sweep if needed.
5. Insulate top and damper. He told me that I don't need to insulate the entire run because the chimney is on the inside of the house so I don't have to worry about the liner cooling down as much as an exterior facing chimney.

I'd also pay him to apply an elastomeric coating to the chimney because with heavy rains we are seeing some absorption of water into the house while he is up there.

 

[bholler]

5. Insulate top and damper. He told me that I don't need to insulate the entire run because the chimney is on the inside of the house so I don't have to worry about the liner cooling down as much as an exterior facing chimney.

everything on the quote looks good but this. He is absolutely wrong on his reasoning there. Did he even check for required clearances?

As far as the liners you linked to if he is using the crossover liner that is far superior to the other one

 

[Easy Livin’ 3000]

My house is an aframe / chalet style and access is not easy. That was my biggest unknown and the primary reason I was going to hire it out.

Here are the facts from the estimate / proposal:

0. Fixed bid at $1,150.
1. Property owner is responsible for all permits and code issues relating to the work.
2. Damper will be trimmed, rendered unusable (easiest / cheapest path).
3. Install 6" flex steel liner from 'New England Chimney Supply', called 'Best Flex'. Unsure of the model #. Here are a few examples of the product specifications http://www.messickstove.com/products/chimneys--liners/best-flex-l-chimney-liner.html , http://www.messickstove.com/products/chimneys--liners/best-flex-crossover-chimney.html
4. Sweep if needed.
5. Insulate top and damper. He told me that I don't need to insulate the entire run because the chimney is on the inside of the house so I don't have to worry about the liner cooling down as much as an exterior facing chimney.

I'd also pay him to apply an elastomeric coating to the chimney because with heavy rains we are seeing some absorption of water into the house while he is up there.

An A-frame certainly makes it difficult, I'd have hired mine out with that situation.

I was hoping bholler would weigh in here, and he did. So now that you have his attention, you are set. Only recommendation I have from here is just listen to what he has to say, he's a pro (literally), and insist as nicely as possible that your installer does what he recommends.

 

[mainerr]

Thank you ED and bholler.

I called the installer today and inquired as so the model of the flex pipe they proposed to install. Waiting to hear back.

everything on the quote looks good but this. He is absolutely wrong on his reasoning there. Did he even check for required clearances?

I don't think he checked for clearances. Do you mean clearances from the chimney to combustibles? I will search the forums for more information on that.

As far as the liners you linked to if he is using the crossover liner that is far superior to the other one

Besides this brand do you have a preferred vendor / model? I checked out the website for NECS and saw this offering (not much further information available), is there a consensus developed on this kind of insulation method or is it a new thing?

 

[mainerr]

An A-frame certainly makes it difficult, I'd have hired mine out with that situation.

Here's what I am looking at. There's a dormer on the other side that creates valleys you can more easily get up. The installer said he'd go up a 40' ladder on this side pictured up to a ladder that hooks over the ridge.

 

[bholler]

Besides this brand do you have a preferred vendor / model? I checked out the website for NECS and saw this offering (not much further information available), is there a consensus developed on this kind of insulation method or is it a new thing?

We use olympia products which their mid weight liner is called hybrid and you can get it preinsulated. They also have armor flex which is heavier than the hybrid and forever flex which is the lightest. Pre insulated is just fine so is the kind you insulate in the field.

 

[Dmitry]

Here's what I am looking at. There's a dormer on the other side that creates valleys you can more easily get up. The installer said he'd go up a 40' ladder on this side pictured up to a ladder that hooks over the ridge.

I was about to say : 'Man, do it yourself , But after looking at the picture I'd say : May be you're better off hiring a pro . That's a not easy roof to climb. Your legs going to shake when you will climb the 40 feet ladder. Unless you like this kind of challenges. You can make one fun weekend installing this with your friends. LOL.

 

[CHeath]

DIY is hard, but doable. Easiest with a flat roof, easy access, and a large straight existing flue. It gets harder with a high pitched roof and/ or a flue that is tight or bendy.

You decide to do it, ask your questions here, lots of experts eager to provide guidance and moral support.

If you decide to hire it out, come here for second opinions. First question to ask the installer is whether the intend to insulate the liner. If they say it's not necessary, come back here to ask for some thoughts.

Good luck.

This is what I'm wrestling with. My chimney has literally only been used 3 months. However, it's 39 years old. I've ran a good, well lit camera down it and all the joints are full and look good. It has a bend in it and worst of all it's 6x6 and clay. Only way to line it would be busting out the clay and I'm not going to pay to have it done. The expenses are outwaying my reasoning for burning wood in the first place (to save money). The only reason I even thought about it was because one tile had a crack. About half way down. Other than that it looks like new.

 

[bholler]

You can make one fun weekend installing this with your friends. LOL.

unless things dont go well which does happen sometimes. I am not at all against people installing on their own but to many here act like it is always easy. Yes some are but some absolutely are not easy.

The only reason I even thought about it was because one tile had a crack. About half way down. Other than that it looks like new.

Does it have the required clearances? If not especially with a crack you really should line it.

 

[CHeath]

unless things dont go well which does happen sometimes. I am not at all against people installing on their own but to many here act like it is always easy. Yes some are but some absolutely are not easy.


Does it have the required clearances? If not especially with a crack you really should line it.

Are you referring to the 2 foot, 10 foot, 3 foot rule? Yes I have all that.

 

[bholler]

Are you referring to the 2 foot, 10 foot, 3 foot rule? Yes I have all that.

No the required clearance from the outside of the masonry structure of the chimney to any combustible material. It needs to be 1" for an external chimney and 2" for internal.

 

[mainerr]

No the required clearance from the outside of the masonry structure of the chimney to any combustible material. It needs to be 1" for an external chimney and 2" for internal.

bholler, thanks for educating me on this. I read this page you posted in another thread after searching the forums. My takeaway is that if I use a fully insulated (top to bottom) liner inside of my clay liner, that the first exception will be met:

1. Masonry chimneys equipped with a chimney lining system listed and labeled for use in chimneys in contact with combustibles in accordance with UL 1777 and installed in accordance with the manufacturers installation instructions are permitted to have combustible material in contact with their exterior surfaces.

I am bummed that my home inspector, and three different chimney specialists who have been on-site haven't mentioned this.

 

[mainerr]

I suppose this exception could be in effect too, as my hearth is rather large (would need to measure to confirm)

3. Exposed combustible trim and the edges of sheathing materials, such as wood siding, shall be permitted to abut the masonry chimney side walls, in accordance with FIGURE R1001.15, provided such combustible trim or sheathing is a minimum of 12 inches (306 mm) from the inside surface of the nearest flue lining.

I still like the notion of installing a fully insulated run for additional safety as well as performance.

 

[bholler]

I suppose this exception could be in effect too, as my hearth is rather large (would need to measure to confirm)

Yes the trim on the edges can touch in most cases but not anything on the face.

 

[Easy Livin’ 3000]

Here's what I am looking at. There's a dormer on the other side that creates valleys you can more easily get up. The installer said he'd go up a 40' ladder on this side pictured up to a ladder that hooks over the ridge.

Yep, that's a tough one. I would not have had the guts to try it, well, maybe with a lift. Definitely not with a ladder.

 

[Easy Livin’ 3000]

This is what I'm wrestling with. My chimney has literally only been used 3 months. However, it's 39 years old. I've ran a good, well lit camera down it and all the joints are full and look good. It has a bend in it and worst of all it's 6x6 and clay. Only way to line it would be busting out the clay and I'm not going to pay to have it done. The expenses are outwaying my reasoning for burning wood in the first place (to save money). The only reason I even thought about it was because one tile had a crack. About half way down. Other than that it looks like new.

Bummer about the one crack and the bend. I agree with you about the saving money part. We've managed about a 95% reduction in our natural gas use heating with wood, but we only turn it on when it gets really cold when the stove can't keep up, and we've had a really mild winter this year.

I'd have thought long and hard if I'd had to spend a lot to get it done, so I know what you are feeling. I hope you can come up with some solutions to get it done without breaking the bank.

 

[Easy Livin’ 3000]

bholler, thanks for educating me on this. I read this page you posted in another thread after searching the forums. My takeaway is that if I use a fully insulated (top to bottom) liner inside of my clay liner, that the first exception will be met:



I am bummed that my home inspector, and three different chimney specialists who have been on-site haven't mentioned this.

I know what you mean, this is what I found when I had estimates done. That is when I found this site, and the main reason that I did it myself, because I felt more confident that I would do it right compared to any of the folks who provided the estimates. Some of them didn't even really take a look at the chimney situation to know what they were up against.

I ended up renting a lift ($400), and insulating the liner myself. Adding the insulation (about $200) was a snap if you have a level spot like a driveway and one extra set of hands. With your roof, and your experience so far with the folks you are working with, maybe give the lift some thought.

The one other issue that I had was connecting the stove to the insert. If I had it to do over again I've have both a different appliance connector (slightly angled instead of straight) and a device that allows you to attach it through the outlet of the stove instead of from the top. Mine was a stove insert inside an existing fireplace without much clearance above the stove.

If you decide to go in that direction (DIY), you'll continue to have lots of knowledgeable answers to any questions that you ask here, and quickly. It got me through it when I did it.

 

[mainerr]

I spoke with my preferred installer on the phone last week to ask what liner he would be installing (the estimate did not specify the product just the brand). It was indeed to be the lighter grade: http://www.messickstove.com/products/chimneys--liners/best-flex-l-chimney-liner.html

If I recall correctly, he told me that adding a liner would take care of the clearance issues. He also stipulated that the liner inside the existing clay liner would take care of the clearances issue without needing to insulate. Lastly, he said unless I am doing major burning (>5 cords) the light liner should be just fine.

He is coming out to my place in about an hour to show me the different liner products in person and to discuss.

I feel like I am in a bit of a quandary as the advice I am receiving from different experts seems to be in conflict. I think I'll get pricing on doing it the safest, or 'overkill' way and go from there.

The good news is I have all summer to plan this out before getting it done for the next burn season.

 

[mainerr]

They showed me all three of the types of liner: the lightweight (316), the middle (crossover) and the fully insulated.

They said the fully insulated is what they use for chimneys that don't have a clay liner already. I was also told it's more of a pain to get put together well as you put it down the chimney.

I liked the middle weight liner the best - http://www.messickstove.com/products/chimneys--liners/best-flex-crossover-chimney.html due to the ruggedness and the fact that it's a smooth interior surface.

They are mailing out new quotes for each liner type.

 

[mainerr]

For context I expect to be burning .75 - 1 cord a year in this system max.