Converting a home from all electric heat- looking for recommendations

[bjorn773]

I am in the process of purchasing a home with all electric heat. As you can imagine the electric bills are quite high in the winter. So, I am looking for ideas. My current home has a forced air furnace supplemented by a Blaze King Princess stove. By burning wood, I have been able to keep my gas bills quite low over the last decade... roughly $50 max per month in the winter. I burn about 3 cords a year heating my 1100 sq. ft. home.

The home I'm purchasing is 1650 sq.ft and currently has electric resistive heat in the ceilings. I am leaning toward installing a natural gas forced air furnace of 90+% efficiency and supplementing with wood heat. We're on the fence as far as installing central air at the same time. I have entertained the following options.

1. Bring my Princess with me and locate it centrally in the house in conjunction with forced air heat.
2. Install an outdoor boiler in conjunction with a forced air furnace.
3. Install a boiler heating system with radiant heat tied in with an outdoor boiler.
4. Installing forced air furnace with an add on wood burning furnace.

Budget is a restriction... I figure on roughly $10k max. It could be done in stages... ie install the forced air furnace and use the BK for now. Then later add an outdoor boiler. The house currently has no ductwork, so it all has to be added. Also, the floors all need to be replaced down to the joists, so I assume this would be a good time to install ducts or radiant.

I will appreciate your $.02- Thanks

 

[peakbagger]

I will start it off on a tangent. Do you need or want AC in the summer?. How are the electric rates in Illinois?. Given the annual temps range for the area, there is a lot to be said for some cold source mini splits. You will reduce your electric heating usage by roughly a third and also have much more efficient AC. No need to pay to install central air or a chimney.

I know its not the answer you wanted but for many folks its the right one.

 

[BoilerMan]

My thoughts exactly!

Cheapest way out, most bang for your buck. If you still want wood bring the stove.

What are the electric rates and is NG available? What cost /therm?

TS

 

[bjorn773]

Thanks for the responses. I am open to all options. I have not purchased anything yet. We're on the fence regarding the a/c. Our current house has it... the house we're buying does not. Natural gas is available and already in the house. The electric rates are about $.12 per kW... taking my total bill divided by kW used... averaged for the last 6 years. Average daily temp over the same period was 51 degrees.

My goal was to eliminate the resistive heat if possible... seems like a very expensive way to heat.

I am clueless on the heat pumps and would appreciate some info:

How cold of winter temps will they still operate?
Will they replace my current heating or be a supplement?
Are they efficient to operate?
Will I need one in each room or in zones?
The exterior is brick... how large of a hole do these require?

Thanks

 

[moey]

There are two styles of heat pumps air source and ground source. Air source ( mini splits ) work to about 0F you'd be hard pressed to get a 3X on performance compared to straight resistance. They would supplement your current system. Ground source heat pumps are not effected by outdoor temp efficiencies are probably 3.5X-4X straight resistance heat.They would replace your current system.

You could install a couple mini splits and keep the electric heat for super super cold temps. That would cut down on the electric resistant heat dramatically.

If you have decent size lot you could get a geothermal system it would rival the cost of a NG furnace and A/C unit.

I think your 10k estimate is low ductwork is not cheap add on a furnace and A/C unit your pushing 15k most likely.

 

[rkusek]

If you have natural gas already in house that would be hard to beat price wise today and probably for years to come. If no gas the heatpumps, minisplits, geothermal, or wood boilers make sense or if you didn't need ac. Illinois is like Nebraska and would be pretty tough for about 2 months in summer without it. Maybe keep and setup the Blaze king for a doomsday situation or to supplement if gas price changes dramatically.

 

[jebatty]

Does your electric utility have load management rates? An even bigger bang for the buck could be mini-splits on load management. They quality with my utility. If normal rate is $0.12 kwh, effective rate vs full rate resistive heating could be as low as about $0.02 kwh, and vs A/C whatever the load management rate is vs full rate.

 

[peakbagger]

I run a mini split in Northern NH. I get useful heat down to as low as 10 below but the efficiency goes way down getting close to resistive heat. Once I get to around 20 degrees F I have plenty of heat and the efficiency picks up. You still need backup but depending on your seasonal temps, the vast majority of the year mini splits are between 2.5 to 3 times more efficient than resistive heat.

 

[BoilerMan]

With NG the most cost effective way to retro fit heating is with direct-vent units like Rinnai wall furnaces. Small quiet and require a 2" hole through the wall I think. No A/C and you may require two of them depending on the layout of your house. Just don't oversize. The 22,000 btu unit would be about right if you have average construction.

I'm guessing early 80s to late 70s construction, all electric heat was popular and radiant ceilings were all the rage. Electricity was supposed to become so cheap with nuclear generation that burning things for heat would become obsolete. You could get a "Gold Seal" plaque on your house if a Gov't inspector passed it for energy standards for the time. Now look at out electric rates..........Guess that didn't work out as planned

TS

 

[maple1]

I see lots of options.

The last thing I think I would try to do is retrofit ductwork.

That would likely lead me to mini-splits, and possibly also a wood stove for supplementing on the coldest days.

You really should factor in right now the desire or future need for A/C. If its there that would lead me to the minis. If not, BoilerMans suggestion of the NG might come into play.

It would be very hard to not use NG for heat if it's already into the house - but I would not go to all the work of adding ductwork to use it. That would likely use up all your budget alone - and still not get you A/C.

 

[bjorn773]

So, if I do want a/c and want to use natural gas... what are my options?

 

[arbutus]

How much of the project are you going to tackle yourself?

$2000 for a basic 95% furnace, $1000??? for ductwork, $3k? for an AC condenser and coil, $?? for permits and inspections, $?? for the AC guy to draw vacuum and charge, and you are still well under your budget.





If I needed AC and had natural gas I would have had a hard time NOT doing that in my two story home that was formerly heated with electric baseboards. AC is not needed here, but heat is an absolute necessity. I ran pex from the basement to each bedroom and bathroom on the second floor, and installed radiators. Thermofin panels and pex went in between the joists under the first floor. A couple radiators in the basement. Everything sized to deliver all the heat needed with 145 degree water at a -20F outdoor temperature. I'm finishing up installing an indoor wood boiler in a shed right outside the back door.

In my previous house I moved the furnace that was smack in the middle of the mudroom to a closet, and replaced the existing ductwork... two chain smokers, no filters, 30 years of time, plus poor initial installation really left me no option. Not hard work.


I don't think I saw it mentioned what your house layout is ... Crawlspace or basement with adequate space for a furnace (many can lay horizontal in a crawlspace) and adequate ceiling clearance to run ductwork? one or two story? If you have time to diy, buy the right tools (cordless drill, left straight and right sheet metal snips, crimper, basic edge bender, maybe $100) ... get hooked up with an hvac supply place that will actually have correctly sized trunk line and transitions to step up/down in size, and have at it.

 

[bjorn773]

I plan on installing the ductwork myself. I have the necessary tools and feel comfortable that I can do the install with some advise regarding sizes, codes and such. I have a contractor willing to install the furnace when the time comes. The mini-splits sound good, but I'd still be heating with electric. Last winter we had a long stretch of zero degree and below temps. My understanding is only the latest models of heat pumps will come close operating in those temps. The newest technology is going to come at a premium cost wise. I have to believe those units are 5K plus each and I will likely need 2. NG has always been considerably cheaper in my area. The basement is semi finished, so access for ductwork is not an issue. The areas that are finished are done with drop ceiling tiles. I'm not trying to shoot down ideas... just trying to make the most reasonable and economical decision for today and the next 20 years.

 

[maple1]

If you can and are willing to tackle retro-fitting ductwork in your situation, that is an advantage, for sure.

I wouldn't be. I considered Geothermal before I did my boiler swap - the task of retrofitting a distribution system (of any kind) pretty well killed the Geo idea at the outset. That was the assessment of my situation.

The thing with mini-splits is that for about the price of just a central A/C unit (I think - just going by info already posted), you could get a unit that could heat and cool. Without duct work. Quite economically. It might not do all the heating all winter - I have no idea how the climate is where you are at. But a wood stove could come into play there quite nicely - and also give a no-power solution.

Just make sure you consider everything in the decision. I don't know anything about NG units - I would maybe check out BoilerMans suggestion above. I was under the impression the wall furnace he spoke of could be used as a space heater without ducting, much like a wood stove - but I might be wrong there. Or maybe you could do minimal selective ducting with one?

I just have a big aversion to duct work - and even thinking about retrofitting it would be a non-starter for me. But that's just me...

 

[BoilerMan]

the Rinnai units I spoke about are the most cost effective units to burn natural gas without any duct work, they cannot use duct work. Mini splits are around 3000 installed in my area. mini splits use an inverter to drive the compressor making them much less expensive to operate then typical fixed speed central AC.I install both for a living.

TS