Convince me to trade a wood stove for an insert to heat 900-sq-ft cabin?

[ThereAreGoats]

Hi all,

I have a 900-square-foot cabin in the Catskills that has both a fireplace on a far external wall, which I don't use, and a Green Mountain 40 stove in a central location, which on the coldest days can heat the place by itself with no problem (leaving aside the issues I've had with the stove). The architect/designer I've hired to do a renovation is pressuring me to install an insert in the fireplace and get rid of the stove to create more room, insisting that once I insulate the space properly, I'll have no problem heating it entirely with the insert. (The "redunandancy" also annoys him, which I understand). But is this true?

Like many of you, I'm very attached to my stove (again, despite it's problems) and am having a hard time letting go of the idea of having a nice, central radiant heat source that doesn't involve blowers and all of that. But I'm open to it if I can be convinced that inserts are equally efficient, don't make noise with the fans, and could do an adequate heating job.

Any wise words?

Robert

 

[GrumpyDad]

Hi all,

I have a 900-square-foot cabin in the Catskills that has both a fireplace on a far external wall, which I don't use, and a Green Mountain 40 stove in a central location, which on the coldest days can heat the place by itself with no problem (leaving aside the issues I've had with the stove). The architect/designer I've hired to do a renovation is pressuring me to install an insert in the fireplace and get rid of the stove to create more room, insisting that once I insulate the space properly, I'll have no problem heating it entirely with the insert. (The "redunandancy" also annoys him, which I understand). But is this true?

Like many of you, I'm very attached to my stove (again, despite it's problems) and am having a hard time letting go of the idea of having a nice, central radiant heat source that doesn't involve blowers and all of that. But I'm open to it if I can be convinced that inserts are equally efficient, don't make noise with the fans, and could do an adequate heating job.

Any wise words?

Robert

architects and designers arent always the wisest when it comes to practicality or intended purpose. Ask yourself, if the stove was gone what usable space is going to offset the loss of the stove? It better be damn good if you love the stove that much.

 

[brenndatomu]

Fans need power to work...and make noise...see where I'm going with this?

 

[EbS-P]

Sounds like a reason to get rid of the GM 40. Inserts heat great with a blower. Less well without but. I’d make the switch for a BK Princess or PE T5 insert. Backup power is its own issues I would tackle separately.

 

[begreen]

In general terms, an insert that projects out onto the hearth will do an adequate job of heating with the blower off. However, when it gets very cold, the blower on an insert can make a nice difference in distributing and circulating the heat. The blower does not need to be run on high speed. On low speed, the blower on a quality insert will be quite low noise.

So, to the recommendation, it might work but I want to know more before making recommendations. Is this a full masonry fireplace? Where is the fireplace located? How open is the floor plan? What are the dimensions of this fireplace?

 

[ThereAreGoats]

Fans need power to work...and make noise...see where I'm going with this?

In general terms, an insert that projects out onto the hearth will do an adequate job of heating with the blower off. However, when it gets very cold, the blower on an insert can make a nice difference in distributing and circulating the heat. The blower does not need to be run on high speed. On low speed, the blower on a quality insert will be quite low noise.

So, to the recommendation, it might work but I want to know more before making recommendations. Is this a full masonry fireplace? Where is the fireplace located? How open is the floor plan? What are the dimensions of this fireplace?

I believe it is all masonry; it's all either brick or stone. The mantel is 80" but I'm not sure what the actual firebox is but maybe between 30" and 40". As for location and layout, the cabin is a big 875-square-foot rectangle that, on a blueprint, would be wider than it is tall. The upper half of the rectangle is pretty open space (living room flowing into kitchen). The fireplace is on the far right side of this part on an external wall. The bottom half of the rectangle is two beds and a bath.

Good to know an insert could do the job, heat-wise. But man the idea of having to use an electric blower with a wood stove is just such a bummer.

 

[begreen]

It sounds like you would be able to heat a lot of the time with the blower off. With actual dimensions, H, W, D for the fireplace we might be able to make better suggestions for what will fit. Otherwise, it's just speculating. Another option might be to extend the hearth and put a freestanding stove in front of the fireplace. Pictures and actual dimensions are needed to make that call.

 

[ThereAreGoats]

With actual dimensions, H, W, D for the fireplace we might be able to make better suggestions for what will fit. Otherwise, it's just speculating.

I'm out of town at the moment and don't be able to take those for a bit, unfortunately. Here's a photo:

 

[begreen]

No problem. We'll be here.

 

[Eman85]

Can you pipe the stove into the fireplace? You own the stove and it sounds like you like it. If you can place it in front of the fireplace and pipe it to that chimney that would be my choice. You're not married to the designer are you?

 

[ThereAreGoats]

Can you pipe the stove into the fireplace? You own the stove and it sounds like you like it. If you can place it in front of the fireplace and pipe it to that chimney that would be my choice. You're not married to the designer are you?

It would need to be actually in the fireplace to avoid crazy bends in the flue, which would be a disaster for the draft. And that would cripple its efficiency since it would just end up heating the masonry.

 

[stoveliker]

Regardless of whether you put an insert in, that fireplace is likely costing you a lot of heat right now.
Both up the flue and thru the masonry to the great outdoors.

If you really want to keep a fireplace in the room just for its aesthetics, I would go with an insulated insert. It'll be more efficient than having the fireplace as is.
If not, I'd see if you can get rid of the fireplace - that'll give you (more?) usable space than getting rid of the stove...

I like stoves better. Inserts can do the job, and protruding ones can do them pretty well. But I think that necessarily they will do it less well, given the difference in exposed surface area (even with convection spaces around the insert). Moreover, I think they tend to have a smaller firebox as similar free-standing stoves.
So in my perception, inserts are pretty good - stoves are a bit better.

So, (given that I would not care about a brick fireplace as a focal point in the room), I'd demolish the fireplace and gain space that way. Keep the stove.

A lot, though, depends on what you like. And no one can make that decision for you.

 

[ThereAreGoats]

Regardless of whether you put an insert in, that fireplace is likely costing you a lot of heat right now.
Both up the flue and thru the masonry to the great outdoors.

If you really want to keep a fireplace in the room just for its aesthetics, I would go with an insulated insert. It'll be more efficient than having the fireplace as is.
If not, I'd see if you can get rid of the fireplace - that'll give you (more?) usable space than getting rid of the stove...

I like stoves better. Inserts can do the job, and protruding ones can do them pretty well. But I think that necessarily they will do it less well, given the difference in exposed surface area (even with convection spaces around the insert). Moreover, I think they tend to have a smaller firebox as similar free-standing stoves.
So in my perception, inserts are pretty good - stoves are a bit better.

So, (given that I would not care about a brick fireplace as a focal point in the room), I'd demolish the fireplace and gain space that way. Keep the stove.

A lot, though, depends on what you like. And no one can make that decision for you.

Thanks so much.

I need to keep the fireplace, because the exterior chimney is actually really nice old stone and adds a lot to the cabin, and having that without an actual fireplace would just feel wrong. I could plug it, though. As for the insert, do you think I'd need a protruding model for such a small cabin? I was under the impression that I might not, given that it's less than 900 square feet, as long as the firebox is relatively decent sized. If I go that route, I'd just like the peace of mind knowing that, with a tight insulation job, I could heat the cabin with the insert alone if I wanted to. Not that I can't use my mini-splits. But what fun is that?

 

[stoveliker]

Maybe not for normal heating, but during power outages in real cold winter weather it would make the cabin more comfortable.

On the other hand, sitting at 64 F during outages while at the cabin may he part of the charm.

 

[Hoytman]

I love the redundancy...even if it remains a fireplace. One can always shove some insulation in the chimney to keep the cold out, but it's there for when you want to enjoy a fire and a little warmth when it's cool out. Sure...with the right insert it could heat the place as well and the right one would stick out some. I like the idea of making it a more efficient way to heat over the fireplace alone.

Me…If it were mine…
I’d also want a stove like a Lopi, or Buck or any other brand that had the ability to send convection air into the room without using a blower (you might still want to get the blower). Lopi and Buck off several smaller models that are radiant and convection stoves at the same time, much like their bigger stoves. Quadra-fire and Regency may also offer models that function like the Buck and Lopi (if not they would be marked off my list). These can use a blower (likely not needed for 900sq ft) but move plenty of air naturally without a blower. Why? When a little heat is needed they function much like a typical radiant stove, but when the temps really drop and the stove is pushed hard they have the ability to move a lot of air without a fan. Many of these can also be used to cook on as well. Of course, a small Blaze King catalyst stove with a thermostat would be awesome in there for you.

If you’re it worried about losing power then any stove with a blower would work. Again, you don’t have to use the blower, and not all blower stoves move a lot of air when the blower is off like Lopi and Buck stoves do. Buck stoves are cheap in price, built like a tank, few parts that are cheaply priced. Lopi stoves are expensive, parts are ordered through a dealer and are not cheap, but parts rarely needed, same for Buck, rarely needed.

Also, you can turn almost any stove into stove that naturally moves convection air by putting a shield behind the stove and making a convection deck to sit on the stove top. Drolet stoves will sell you a shield and top for their very well made stoves. They have cheaply priced well made parts that are hardly ever needed and their customer service is fantastic.

 

[ThereAreGoats]

I love the redundancy...even if it remains a fireplace. One can always shove some insulation in the chimney to keep the cold out, but it's there for when you want to enjoy a fire and a little warmth when it's cool out. Sure...with the right insert it could heat the place as well and the right one would stick out some. I like the idea of making it a more efficient way to heat over the fireplace alone.

Me…If it were mine…
I’d also want a stove like a Lopi, or Buck or any other brand that had the ability to send convection air into the room without using a blower (you might still want to get the blower). Lopi and Buck off several smaller models that are radiant and convection stoves at the same time, much like their bigger stoves. Quadra-fire and Regency may also offer models that function like the Buck and Lopi (if not they would be marked off my list). These can use a blower (likely not needed for 900sq ft) but move plenty of air naturally without a blower. Why? When a little heat is needed they function much like a typical radiant stove, but when the temps really drop and the stove is pushed hard they have the ability to move a lot of air without a fan. Many of these can also be used to cook on as well. Of course, a small Blaze King catalyst stove with a thermostat would be awesome in there for you.

If you’re it worried about losing power then any stove with a blower would work. Again, you don’t have to use the blower, and not all blower stoves move a lot of air when the blower is off like Lopi and Buck stoves do. Buck stoves are cheap in price, built like a tank, few parts that are cheaply priced. Lopi stoves are expensive, parts are ordered through a dealer and are not cheap, but parts rarely needed, same for Buck, rarely needed.

Also, you can turn almost any stove into stove that naturally moves convection air by putting a shield behind the stove and making a convection deck to sit on the stove top. Drolet stoves will sell you a shield and top for their very well made stoves. They have cheaply priced well made parts that are hardly ever needed and their customer service is fantastic.

Oh interesting. I guess I didn't realize there were some inserts that just used natural convection. What are the tradeoffs? I'm guessing they don't warm quite as quickly as the ones with blowers. Or am I wrong?

 

[Jmorg]

I'm out of town at the moment and don't be able to take those for a bit, unfortunately. Here's a photo:

View attachment 301419

I would use your GM as a hearth stove instead of putting an insert in there if it can be rear vented. You never know when that power might go out...

 

[Hoytman]

Oh interesting. I guess I didn't realize there were some inserts that just used natural convection. What are the tradeoffs? I'm guessing they don't warm quite as quickly as the ones with blowers. Or am I wrong?

I didn’t say there were inserts that did that. I was talking about stoves. If you get an insert for the fireplace you might get one like Begreen stated that sits out onto the hearth some. That’s why I said the right insert “would stick out some”.

The part I mentioned about convection air was strictly about free standing stoves.

 

[Dix]

Welcome to the Forums

Just an FYI, the amount of electricity used to power a fan in an insert is minimal. Fan noise on low is not even noticed.

And yes, as @begreen said, an insert that extends from the hearth, puts out a lot more heat. When the blower died in the PE, I was able to put a 10" box fan blowing across the front of the insert, and move the heat that way. It worked, in February, during a blizzard