Creosote help?

[Jotel me this]

In another thread, ive been asking about how to use a wood stove properly:

https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads...urn-too-quick-20-smolder.170627/#post-2288354..

With this... ive learned that its ok to lower the air amount to get a slow burn.. but all of the websites talking about creosote say that slow burns CAUSE creosote.

so.... how do i lower the air to get a slow burn AND prevent creosote which is created under those circumstances in the first place? ..one person on the other forum (link above) said creosote only forms from when you first throw wood on and/or reload.

is this accurate? does creosote not come from coals AFTER the fires been burning for a couple hours?

THANKS!

 

[Alpine1]

To make it simple, creosote is smoke condensed in the stove pipe. Wood burns in 3 stages (again, we keep it simple here)
1: water evaporation
2: off gassing
3: carbon burning

Modern stoves burn the smoke in stage 2 (by means of a catalyst or secondary air tubes) so creosote build up is greatly reduced (but not eliminated).
With so called tube stoves, you need to keep the temps inside the stove around 300 deg C in order to burn the smoke. Once the wood is reduced to coals, there’s no more gas that can condense on the stove pipe walls.
You can reduce primary air in stage 2 up to the point you only have secondary flames in the stove (so called ghost flames) usually near the top of the stove and with a blueish colour.
You want to avoid at all cost a smoldering fire with no flame at all in stage 2, that causes creosote build up.

 

[Jotel me this]

To make it simple, creosote is smoke condensed in the stove pipe. Wood burns in 3 stages (again, we keep it simple here)
1: water evaporation
2: off gassing
3: carbon burning

Modern stoves burn the smoke in stage 2 (by means of a catalyst or secondary air tubes) so creosote build up is greatly reduced (but not eliminated).
With so called tube stoves, you need to keep the temps inside the stove around 300 deg C in order to burn the smoke. Once the wood is reduced to coals, there’s no more gas that can condense on the stove pipe walls.
You can reduce primary air in stage 2 up to the point you only have secondary flames in the stove (so called ghost flames) usually near the top of the stove and with a blueish colour.
You want to avoid at all cost a smoldering fire with no flame at all in stage 2, that causes creosote build up.

Thanks.

So.. would you call the following pic 'smoldering'?...
So far, this fire has been burning for 7 hours, i havent reloaded once, top of stove is 300F.

 

[Jotel me this]

maybe im thinking too much about this. my issue here (brain fart) is that i cant wrap my head around how to prevent creosote WHILE being away at work for the whole day.

..eventually... the stove is going to cool down and smolder before i get home, no?... which would cause creosote?

 

[edyit]

i would call that last pic "coaling" its done burning now it's just coals

 

[jatoxico]

If you've spent 5 min on Hearth you've seen folks talking about dry wood. Fires make creosote but using dry wood greatly reduces the chance of forming bad (stage 3) gooey creosote. It's a balancing act. but you need to keep the flue gases hot enough so the smoke doesn't condense too much.

Hot loads, cold starts, atmospheric conditions, wood quality, every day can be a little different as far as how much air is enough. Mainly don't habitually shut down stove-loads of marginal or wet wood. Get the flue up to temp and keep the fire burning briskly until you have a feel for it.

Oh and once the fire is down to coals there's not much chance of making a whole lot of creosote.

 

[Jotel me this]

Thanks!

..but you need to keep the flue gases hot enough so the smoke doesn't condense too much.

To make it simple, creosote is smoke condensed in the stove pipe. Wood burns in 3 stages (again, we keep it simple here)
1: water evaporation
2: off gassing
3: carbon burning

Modern stoves burn the smoke in stage 2 (by means of a catalyst or secondary air tubes) so creosote build up is greatly reduced (but not eliminated).
With so called tube stoves, you need to keep the temps inside the stove around 300 deg C in order to burn the smoke. Once the wood is reduced to coals, there’s no more gas that can condense on the stove pipe walls.
You can reduce primary air in stage 2 up to the point you only have secondary flames in the stove (so called ghost flames) usually near the top of the stove and with a blueish colour.
You want to avoid at all cost a smoldering fire with no flame at all in stage 2, that causes creosote build up.

Thanks. There seems to be a lot of conflicting info going around. Lots of people in here say they stuff their box as full as it can go to get a long burn..

..ive also read:

"Overloading the firebox with wood increases chloride (table salt) as a major ingredient which creosote buildup by reducing complete can be corrosive to both metal and masonry combustion and causing more of the unburned materials. gases to escape up the chimney"
​

https://www.uky.edu/bae/sites/www.uky.edu.bae/files/AEES-36_0.PDF

very confusing. fill it up or no?

 

[lsucet]

Thanks!






Thanks. There seems to be a lot of conflicting info going around. Lots of people in here say they stuff their box as full as it can go to get a long burn..

..ive also read:

"Overloading the firebox with wood increases chloride (table salt) as a major ingredient which creosote buildup by reducing complete can be corrosive to both metal and masonry combustion and causing more of the unburned materials. gases to escape up the chimney"
​

https://www.uky.edu/bae/sites/www.uky.edu.bae/files/AEES-36_0.PDF

very confusing. fill it up or no?

It is good you are doing your homework. But now you are here in this site that is full of members with lots of experience. If you are new to wood burning, you are in the right place. I will recommend to ask how to burn efficient and safe. Understanding that, will help you a lot with your concern about creosote cause you will be using good burning practice minimizing creosote. Many here can guide you in the right direction.
Provide if possible more details about your setup. That will help others to answer your questions.

 

[Jotel me this]

It is good you are doing your homework. But now you are here in this site that is full of members with lots of experience. If you are new to wood burning, you are in the right place. I will recommend to ask how to burn efficient and safe. Understanding that, will help you a lot with your concern about creosote cause you will be using good burning practice minimizing creosote. Many here can guide you in the right direction.
Provide if possible more details about your setup. That will help others to answer your questions.

Thanks so much!

 

[kennyp2339]

Prevention of creosote.
Step one - Buy a wood moisture meter - lowes / home depot less then $35.00, Take a split of wood and split it again, test the fresh face of the wood going with the grain, ideally you want it under 20%.
step two - start a fire, let the fire get established and add more splits. keep the air control all the way open, when the stove top thermometer starts to creep up to the 475 deg f mark start taking the main air control and reduce it by a 1/3, wait 20min (your learning your stove at this point) see what the fire is doing, the flames should start to get lazy, the stove top temp should be 500deg - 600 deg. Outside there should be no visible or very little visible smoke coming out of the chimney (you should just be seeing heat vapors)
Step 3 - lower the air control another 1/3, see if the flames get lazier, you should still maintain the stove top temps, there should be secondary flames coming out of the tubes, there should only be heat vapors or a little smoke coming out of the chimney.
Any air adjustments take time while burning, figure 20min minimum before the full effect kicks in, so monitor and learn the stove, realize that all adjustments change with the weather to, you may have the air setting even lower in mid winter because draft is better in the cold, then say now.
Use your chimney cap as a reference, if it starts to get crusty, start burning hotter, creosote develops in the upper part of the chimney first (coldest part where it vapors condense)
Stove top thermometer - there is a difference between the stove top and single wall chimney pipe thermometer so make sure you have the right one, some people use a IR gun rated to 1000deg.

 

[Jotel me this]

... there should be secondary flames coming out of the tubes, there should only be heat vapors or a little smoke coming out of the chimney.

Thanks a lot. i printed what you said and hung it on my fridge.

now.. when you say 'flames coming out of tubes'...

below is a poorly taken, glare-ridden photo of the inside, top portion of my F-55. are these the holes? ive never seen flames come out of them. is fire supposed to come out? i see flame rolling around them when the flames from the wood touch it... but never have seen flames come out of the holes.

(the blob on the lower right is flame)

 

[kennyp2339]

It will look like a small gas furnace going off with lazy ghost flames just whisping around the firebox, also the actual wood will look like its not really burning, all the action is happening above.

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[Jotel me this]

It will look like a small gas furnace going off with lazy ghost flames just whisping around the firebox, also the actual wood will look like its not really burning, all the action is happening above.

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well crap... my stove has never done those little jets of fire coming out of the holes UGH

 

[Rickb]

well crap... my stove has never done those little jets of fire coming out of the holes UGH

That's cause your wood is wet or your not burning the stove correct or your stove is not very good.....

 

[kennyp2339]

well crap... my stove has never done those little jets of fire coming out of the holes UGH

No worries man, your brand new at this and there's lots to learn, good thing is that were at the very start of the season. Get the meter to check your wood, and a stove top thermometer, then go from there.

 

[Jotel me this]

That's cause your wood is wet or your not burning the stove correct or your stove is not very good.....

well the wood is at 20% verified by splitting the wood in half and measuring with a digital moisture meter
the stove is a very good jotul f55 carrabasset with a 3 cubic feet fire box
and im trying my best to figure out how to burn it.
ive done everything suggested to have a good burn, yet cant get the secondary burn.

 

[Rickb]

well the wood is at 20% verified by splitting the wood in half and measuring with a digital moisture meter
the stove is a very good jotul f55 carrabasset with a 3 cubic feet fire box
and im trying my best to figure out how to burn it.
ive done everything suggested to have a good burn, yet cant get the secondary burn.

In your other post you were burning it with your primary air open... You will not get secondary flames that way. So try to do some searchign and reading on this forum. You most likely need to turn your air down sooner.

 

[Jotel me this]

No worries man, your brand new at this and there's lots to learn, good thing is that were at the very start of the season. Get the meter to check your wood, and a stove top thermometer, then go from there.

Thanks so much,

Lastly, do you think its possible my Jotel F-55's secondary burn doesnt actually produce flames coming out of the holes on the top of the baffle?
maybe im over thinking this.

the instructions read:

"You can also monitor stove performance through the window. Peak combustion efficiency occurs when exhaust gas is burned at the baffle in the top of the firebox. This is apparent as rolling yellow-orange flames appearing at the secondary air ports in the underside of the baffle plate and forward tube. "​

it doesnt say 'flames coming out of the tubes'. it says flames AT the ports.

 

[lsucet]

well the wood is at 20% verified by splitting the wood in half and measuring with a digital moisture meter
the stove is a very good jotul f55 carrabasset with a 3 cubic feet fire box
and im trying my best to figure out how to burn it.
ive done everything suggested to have a good burn, yet cant get the secondary burn.

Follow the advice mentioned above by @kennyp2339 and in no time you will be seeing good results. It is actually recommended that the split that you resplit be inside at room temperature for at least 24hrs before re-split it and take measurements of MC. That will give the more accurate reading.

 

[lsucet]

The tubes has the ports, so, yes it is right either way

 

[kennyp2339]

lol - AT THE.

 

[lsucet]

LMAO. Try do some reading here before continue burning that stove. I feel you are unsafe burning that stove due to lack of knowledge. Do more homework here. You don't want to create a catastrophe. Give you more time to understand it.

 

[Alpine1]

Thanks.

So.. would you call the following pic 'smoldering'?...
So far, this fire has been burning for 7 hours, i havent reloaded once, top of stove is 300F.

View attachment 231445

That’s NOT a smoldering fire. That’s a nice bed of coals, good for another hour or so before reloading. No creosote at this stage of the burn!

 

[begreen]

First, the picture you showed here is with only coals. There is no risk of creosote production at this stage of the burn cycle.

Second, in the other thread, the second picture you showed - the one with the air down at 20%, showed secondary combustion occurring above the wood. You just closed down the air a little too much and/or too soon.

 

[Jotel me this]

First, the picture you showed here is with only coals. There is no risk of creosote production at this stage of the burn cycle.

Second, in the other thread, the second picture you showed - the one with the air down at 20%, showed secondary combustion occurring above the wood. You just closed down the air a little too much and/or too soon.
View attachment 231461

..for a second i felt a huge weight of relief when i read what you wrote
but that picture was taken at just the right time. seconds later all the flames went out completely so i definitely didnt have a secondary burn

i may be confusing what a secondary burn actually is. perhaps with the F55, the flame doesnt actually shoot out of the small holes?