dampening temperature swings and distributing heat

[twd000]

I have a Dutchwest 2462 (3 cubic foot firebox) in the basement. The finished area of the basement is only 640 sq. ft., so if I get it loaded up for an overnight 8-hour burn, it overheats the basement, and very little heat makes it upstairs. Of course one idea is to install a stove on the main floor to get heat up there, but I wondering if there is a cheaper solution. I have seen some stoves with water jackets to siphon off some of the excess heat, and pump it over to the DHW heater, or hydronic floor-heating coils. My DHW and central air furnace run off propane. I have no baseboard heaters or other hydronic distribution equipment yet. It's all forced hot-air. The appliances are not metered, so I don't know how much propane each one uses, but I have read that water heating can be about 1/2 the energy consumption of space heating, so I'll use that assumption to justify augmenting the HVAC system. I have a drop ceiling in the basement that can be temporarily removed to put radiant floor-heating loops on the backside of the first floor flooring (a mixture of hardwood and laminate). It seems that some PEX tubing and a simple flow-controller with pressure-relief valves would complete a simple system for less than $1000. Has anyone tried this approach to use water to bring heat off their woodstove to an upper floor?

 

[axeman628]

Not to over simplify this, but can you leave the basement door open and get some convection going? Or some kind of ducting to move cool air from upstairs to the basement and vice versa?

Edit: I know in my case with my stove on the first floor, the second floor will heat up faster than the first. Pretty open floor plan, but I imagine you can get some results before going full bore and fabricating a hydronic heating system.

 

[mellow]

Is your basement walls insulated? Quite a bit of heat is sucked up by that cold masonry.

 

[Clydeburner]

Have you tried a fan at the top of the stairs blowing towards the stove? This will cause the hot air in the basement to flow up the stairway putting some heat to the upstairs....

 

[twd000]

Basement walls are well-insulated with fiberglass batts + drywall. It'll run up to the mid 80s down there if i'm not careful. The finished area of the basement is only 640 sq ft so this stove is way over-sized to heat that small of an area, but right-sized to heat the whole house, if I could just distribute it better.

I leave the basement door open, and I can feel <some> warm air moving up the steps. It's a pretty good breeze, but the heat doesn't make it much farther into the first floor. There is a wall immediately in front of the doorway, and I think that blocks the airflow. I'm not sure how I would position a fan to blow down the steps without creating a tripping hazard.

 

[Clydeburner]

Maybe something like this could work....

 

[Squirrel]

What type of drop ceiling is in the basement? If it is sectional panels can you remove one above the stove and one from furthest away from the stove to set up air circulation directly below the floor?

 

[twd000]

Yes I can remove the sectional panels but that just exposes the subfloor. I don't think conduction through wood flooring would transfer enough heat. I need convection air currents

 

[twd000]

Maybe something like this could work....View attachment 171453 View attachment 171454

The first two look like they go through a cut out in the floor or wall?

The upper corner fans might be just the ticket. Let me get an IR measurement of the still air temperature up in that corner of the door frame.

 

[Clydeburner]

The first two look like they go through a cut out in the floor or wall?

The upper corner fans might be just the ticket. Let me get an IR measurement of the still air temperature up in that corner of the door frame.

I think the ones are designed for through the wall configuration, I would be carefull with cutting holes in the floors between levels, check local fire codes.
My father and I have used the corner fans for years, they run quiet and do work pretty well at moving the air around. The temps rising up my Stairs are usually the same temps(75° average) as the downstairs with the insert (has blower), the air dropping down the stairs is usually five or so degrees cooler.

 

[Woody Stover]

Is the basement just one room with the stove pretty close to the staircase? Have you got a blower on the stove? The blower will tip the balance toward convection, which will heat more air as opposed to radiation which will heat objects in the room. More hot air in the room will strengthen convection to the upstairs.

 

[twd000]

The basement is basically one large room plus one smaller room. The stove is close to the stairwell. Do the corner fans establish a convective loop through the same doorway? Cold air pushed down from above, and hot air returning below?

The stove does not have a blower on it; although I understand I can buy one for my stove that blows between the inner firebox and other outer casting. I can use a box fan as a quick and dirty test and see if I can get some convection going.

The other thing that I noticed is that the chimney goes through all three stories; it's basically a 3'x6' cinder block tower. The ash cleanouts from all three wood-burning appliances (basement stove + 2 main floor fireplaces) all drop down to the foundation, with three trap doors for cleaning ashes in the basement. I wonder if I could take advantages of these openings to encourage a convective return loop - i.e. push air down the ash cleanouts from the main floor, and encourage the hot air to flow up the stairwell? A couple 6" computer fans upstairs and some HVAC filters downstairs would be a pretty cheap test.

 

[Clydeburner]

The basement is basically one large room plus one smaller room. The stove is close to the stairwell. Do the corner fans establish a convective loop through the same doorway? Cold air pushed down from above, and hot air returning below?

The stove does not have a blower on it; although I understand I can buy one for my stove that blows between the inner firebox and other outer casting. I can use a box fan as a quick and dirty test and see if I can get some convection going.

The other thing that I noticed is that the chimney goes through all three stories; it's basically a 3'x6' cinder block tower. The ash cleanouts from all three wood-burning appliances (basement stove + 2 main floor fireplaces) all drop down to the foundation, with three trap doors for cleaning ashes in the basement. I wonder if I could take advantages of these openings to encourage a convective return loop - i.e. push air down the ash cleanouts from the main floor, and encourage the hot air to flow up the stairwell? A couple 6" computer fans upstairs and some HVAC filters downstairs would be a pretty cheap test.

The corner fans will create a circulation of sorts, I can't say with your stair configuration it will optimal, but any bit of circulation will be beneficial. The layouts my father and I have used them in were, the main living area at his house to move the heat from the stove room to through the rest of the first floor and I have had them at the bottom of the stairs blowing upward. I feel that being able to push air down to the stove will have a better result for the hot air to rise and replace the cooler more dense air. You could try to put the fan at the bottom of the stairs blowing towards the stove to see if you can feel the air difference at the top of the stairs...
I went from a hearth mounted stove without blower to an insert with a blower and I can say the blower does a better job getting the air circulating throughout the whole house without other fans, plus it keeps the downstairs from getting too hot. If you can get a blower for your stove I feel that would be your best option.
As far as using the chimney for circulation I'm not sure that would be the safest idea. Would you be circulating the upstairs air to the basement in an occupied flue? Could this possibly cool the liner and up the chance for creosote?

 

[twd000]

I'm not proposing using any of the flues for circulation, but the ash cleanouts. The three flues share the same 3'x6' chimney and there is a big hollow space in the center for cleaning ashes that drop down.

I'll try the conventional fans first and report back next weekend

 

[jetsam]

I would just cut a hole in the floor. Put a nice HVAC duct cover in the hole , and you have a convection-powered thermal transfer system that costs about $10 in parts and installs in 15 minutes (plus about six hours of deciding where exactly the holes go, knowing me).

If you want to get fancy, install a 6" HVAC boot in the cutout, and you can mount a 6" duct fan in the end of the boot. Then you can put a thermostat on the fan, and then you can build a raspberry pi to do intelligent thermostat control of the fan array because there will be six or eight new computer controlled ducts by then, and then your wife can chew you out for living in the basement and running wires and tubes and chit all over her house and cutting holes in the floor like a crazy person.

Well, that'd be my methodology, anyway.

 

[Clydeburner]

I'm not proposing using any of the flues for circulation, but the ash cleanouts. The three flues share the same 3'x6' chimney and there is a big hollow space in the center for cleaning ashes that drop down.

I'll try the conventional fans first and report back next weekend

I may have misunderstood, are the fireplaces not being used? Flue damper is closed/insulated? If that were the case, that may just work. Have you tried even just opening the ash cleanouts both in the fireplaces and and in the basement near the stove? As long as you are not allowing flue gasses to be pulled back down the chimneys it should be om. I'd definitely put a co detector in the basement if you don't already if you do decide to give this a whirl. If there is a problem hopefully someone will chime in.

 

[Woody Stover]

Not sure the corner fans would help much, and the one in the bottom of the door would not be blowing down the stairs, but rather across, disrupting the natural loop. Cutting went holes would probably work pretty well but as Clydeburner mentioned, you need to comply with code or your home insurance may be void. I think the vents need to be fused so they would close in case of a fire, and slow the spread of the fire to the upper level. I think the blower would work pretty well also. The OEM version is pricey but maybe you could get an aftermarket job and plumb it in. A regular fan blowing on the stove will pull a little more heat off, but I think the blower will do much better. I'd think trying to use the clean-outs, they would lose much of the heat to the block.
What is the layout upstairs, pretty open? Does the staircase come up in the middle of the upstairs space? How much sq. footage upstairs?
Does the stove have a stainless liner connected or is it just dumping into the clay liner? What would be the added expense of bringing the stove upstairs? [Beside the stainless liner that I would do...]

 

[begreen]

I would just cut a hole in the floor. Put a nice HVAC duct cover in the hole , and you have a convection-powered thermal transfer system that costs about $10 in parts and installs in 15 minutes (plus about six hours of deciding where exactly the holes go, knowing me).

Arbitrary holes often don't enhance convection. They need to be properly sized and located to be most effective. Also, check with local requirements. A fusible link damper is often required for each hole for fire protection.

 

[twd000]

Not sure the corner fans would help much, and the one in the bottom of the door would not be blowing down the stairs, but rather across, disrupting the natural loop. Cutting went holes would probably work pretty well but as Clydeburner mentioned, you need to comply with code or your home insurance may be void. I think the vents need to be fused so they would close in case of a fire, and slow the spread of the fire to the upper level. I think the blower would work pretty well also. The OEM version is pricey but maybe you could get an aftermarket job and plumb it in. A regular fan blowing on the stove will pull a little more heat off, but I think the blower will do much better. I'd think trying to use the clean-outs, they would lose much of the heat to the block.
What is the layout upstairs, pretty open? Does the staircase come up in the middle of the upstairs space? How much sq. footage upstairs?
Does the stove have a stainless liner connected or is it just dumping into the clay liner? What would be the added expense of bringing the stove upstairs? [Beside the stainless liner that I would do...]

Not looking to cut any floor vents. Yes, fireplaces are un-used currently.

Yes, the stove has a stainless liner, from the basement to the roof 3 stories above. The draft is healthy to say the least.

As far as dumping heat to the cinder blocks in the chimney, it is internal (inside conditioned space) until it reaches the attic. I thought about running some dryer duct to make it a closed circuit and prevent the heat from escaping upwards.

The first floor layout looks like this: https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/options-for-woodstove-in-dual-fireplace.146111/

As far as relocating the Dutchwest upstairs, I think it is too tall to fit in either fireplace hearth. I would need to buy a new stove, liner, and installation. So a very expensive proposition.

 

[Clydeburner]

Not looking to cut any floor vents. Yes, fireplaces are un-used currently.

Yes, the stove has a stainless liner, from the basement to the roof 3 stories above. The draft is healthy to say the least.

As far as dumping heat to the cinder blocks in the chimney, it is internal (inside conditioned space) until it reaches the attic. I thought about running some dryer duct to make it a closed circuit and prevent the heat from escaping upwards.

The first floor layout looks like this: https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/options-for-woodstove-in-dual-fireplace.146111/View attachment 171733

As far as relocating the Dutchwest upstairs, I think it is too tall to fit in either fireplace hearth. I would need to buy a new stove, liner, and installation. So a very expensive proposition.

I would have to think you may be on to something running a duct down towards the stove with a fan at the bottom to help induce the cooler down, forcing the heat up your staircase. It is amazing the things we do and try to get the most out of setups, keep us posted on your progress. ...

 

[Woody Stover]

As far as relocating the Dutchwest upstairs, I think it is too tall to fit in either fireplace hearth

Can you put it out on the hearth, in front of the fireplace opening, then rear-vent it into the fireplace? That's how I have mine set up...goes into a tee and then the stainless liner. Specs on the rear-vent height should be in the manual. With the short-leg kit you can get several more inches to work with as well.

 

[twd000]

The den fireplace lintel is at 28". The rear vent on my 2642 is 33" above grade wit standard legs. I understand the short leg kit reduces that by 4" to 29". But I also need to allocate some height for an elbow to make a quick turn at the stove outlet, do I have to add 8" diameter stove pipe to my clearance?

 

[Woody Stover]

It appears that the 33 inches is to the top of the pipe but after subtracting 4" for the short legs, you're still at least an inch too high. The manual also shows that you can put it on the hearth, no legs, if you have a "completely non-combustible hearth." The problem with that is you won't have the option to run without the blower, since you can't drop the plates that cover the convection holes in the bottom of the stove. With the short legs I can either run the blower, or back out the bolts a ways and drop down the convection cover plates, letting the stove convect naturally without the blower. Stock blower is two-speed, and you can add a stock thermostat, or get your own like Zkx14 did. You could also add a variable speed control, like a motor-speed controller, so you could run the blower low for the least amount of noise, yet still pull the heat off the stove. If it sits on the floor, I don't think I would run it without the blower. Gotta let that heat out.
The den location is better for sure; More central location and more doors to the rest of the house. Even if you have the necessary lintel height in the living room, it's gonna be hard to move the heat to the rest of the house. Aside from getting a 2461, which is shorter, it looks like the best option in the den might be top-vent up about 3', then go into the chimney with a thimble to the stainless liner. Then with the standard legs, you would have good access to the convection plates for easy (two minutes) change-over from blower to natural convection. I've never done a thimble install, so don't know how easy or hard it might be to do.

 

[twd000]

I've been reading up on the blower. The user manual only makes one reference to the blower as an optional accessory; there is no information on how or when to use it. Glad to have the knowledge of the hearth.com users!

I found the OEM blower selling for $215 on Amazon:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...ue&ref_=ox_sc_act_title_1&smid=A20UTTG8K1FCHY
I assume this is the right model for my 2462?
I'll initially test it out with just the blower, but the speed controller and thermostat may eventually be on my wish-list if the blower looks like it is going to solve my distribution problem. Does anyone have a link for the controller and thermostat?

Is it possible to run this in reverse, so it sucks instead of blows? I'm thinking ahead if I end up running some dryer duct thru the ash cleanout to the first floor, it would be great to push that super-heated air directly from the blower into the duct.

 

[Clydeburner]

My manual states not to connect the blower to a duct work set up. I would think this to be in the case of combustion gasses and not allowing them to be blown through the duct sysytem....
I would use the blower on the stove and run a duct from the main living area to the basement letting the cooler air naturally drop which will allow the hot air blowing off the stove to rise and supply heat to the main living space, replacing the denser cool air.
You may be able to use a small online fan to help move the cooler air towards the stove.