My Greenish Power Project and Updating a Few Grid Cords

[sloeffle]

Now he here is the kicker. If you invest that cash at say 5-7% per year it’s hard to say that going green saves money.

You and I must be investing in totally different things. Returns from the largest ETFs in 2025

• Vanguard S&P 500 ETF (VOO): ~$143 billion in inflows (approx. 17.8% return).
• iShares Core S&P 500 ETF (IVV): ~$78 billion in inflows (approx. 17.8% return).
• Vanguard Total Stock Market ETF (VTI): ~$39 billion in inflows (approx. 17.1% return).
• VXUS (international fund) returned almost 35% in 2025.

Yes, the markets can and will go down, but history tells us that they are mostly going up.

Don't want to railroad this thread so I'll leave this post brief.

 

[EbS-P]

You and I must be investing in totally different things. Returns from the largest ETFs in 2025

• Vanguard S&P 500 ETF (VOO): ~$143 billion in inflows (approx. 17.8% return).
• iShares Core S&P 500 ETF (IVV): ~$78 billion in inflows (approx. 17.8% return).
• Vanguard Total Stock Market ETF (VTI): ~$39 billion in inflows (approx. 17.1% return).
• VXUS (international fund) returned almost 35% in 2025.

Yes, the markets can and will go down, but history tells us that they are mostly going up.

Don't want to railroad this thread so I'll leave this post brief.

And if you can 15% energy improvements are hard to make a long term financial argument for. But if you have a fixed income I didn’t do the math if I spend/cash out the gain each year.

I hope my portfolio did that good. I didn’t look.

 

[Burnin Since 1991]

You and I must be investing in totally different things. Returns from the largest ETFs in 2025

• Vanguard S&P 500 ETF (VOO): ~$143 billion in inflows (approx. 17.8% return).
• iShares Core S&P 500 ETF (IVV): ~$78 billion in inflows (approx. 17.8% return).
• Vanguard Total Stock Market ETF (VTI): ~$39 billion in inflows (approx. 17.1% return).
• VXUS (international fund) returned almost 35% in 2025.

Yes, the markets can and will go down, but history tells us that they are mostly going up.

Don't want to railroad this thread so I'll leave this post brief.

Since I have money in that Vanguard ETF, I will let you slide.

 

[Burnin Since 1991]

I watched that. Remember that is gas and electricity bill combined. PG&E did change their solar rate structure. I sell at 0.04 and buy at 0.12. Net metering was/is a subsidy. They can’t last forever. Someone has to pay for it. I’m not saying it’s wrong. Solar costs have come down and now they aren’t as needed. California whole sale electric prices when the sun is shining are almost zero!

Correct on the G&E. I grew up under CG&E Cincinnati Gas & Electric so I get the combined. I paid combined for NG&E last year 4500 (+/-). The video opened my eyes though

 

[Burnin Since 1991]

Yeah, if I lived in Mass I would be mad at the utilities AND their regulators too. You shouldn't be mad at green energy, you should be mad at how your utilities and regulators are handling green energy.

I still remember 10 years ago when Mass pols got caught taking payoffs from the wind producers to allow them to contract super high rates for wind power. Disgusting, and killed the whole offshore project back then. I would have zero confidence they are not all STILL corrupt. The New England states pay waaay more than similar states elsewhere, and there is a long list of reasons given for why, but they all sound fishy to me. And nobody offers a solution. Meanwhile, the rest of the country pays half as much on average.

And I have family that work at Eversource.

PS: It sounds like you need to sell the existing genny, and buy an inverter genny, just to get the noise factor down. How you wire it is a secondary issue. This assumes that a local shop can't swap/improve the muffler or something on the existing genny. During a blackout I run my stuff off my EV with a silent 2kW inverter. But my neighbors genny is LOUD. Fortunately, he's on the end opposite my bedrooms.

Good point. I am truly not against green energy, but it appears when they talk about green energy they're talking about the greenbacks flowing back and forth between the govt and the green energy companies. I'm trying to find the green in me that makes sense for me financially upfront and ROI.
I know lots of cable, Eversource and National Grid employees. I bought my home from a guy that worked for the cable company in the late 80's though the name of the cable company eludes me. It has been bought and sold so many times I'm not really sure who owns what now. Same is true with Eversource and National Grid and Verizon too for that matter. My neighbor retired from Verizon about 15 years ago.

I'm looking at a 4k/3k inverter at Lowes right now. It has everything I'm looking for. I just have to go their physically and order it as I have a store credit of several hundred bucks that I want to use to offset the cost.

 

[woodgeek]

And if you can 15% energy improvements are hard to make a long term financial argument for. But if you have a fixed income I didn’t do the math if I spend/cash out the gain each year.

I hope my portfolio did that good. I didn’t look.

I agree. But in my experience AIRSEALING projects can easily pay >25% for decades. If OP has an older house that has not been pro airsealed he should look into to, esp with baseboard heat.

I would normally say call your utility for that, but I have little confidence that they will do the job correctly in MA.

 

[EbS-P]

I agree. But in my experience AIRSEALING projects can easily pay >25% for decades. If OP has an older house that has not been pro airsealed he should look into to, esp with baseboard heat.

I would normally say call your utility for that, but I have little confidence that they will do the job correctly in MA.

I would agree. Air sealing and insulation have great ROI and with a bit of learning the average DIYer can do a good job with simple tools.

 

[bogieb]

Here are the charges from my December 2025 Electric bills.

December 2025 Electric Bill

1618 kwh used

"Delivery Charges"

Customer Charge 10.00 (Great news, for being a good customer, I have to pay $10.00 a month?)
Dist Chg .09 149.00
Transition Charge -.0003 -.59
Transmission Charge .06 93.81
Energy Efficiency Chg .03 46.59
Renewable Energy Chg .0005 0.81
Net Meter Recovery Chg .02 27.89
Distributed Solar Charge .008 12.66
Electric Vehicle Charge .002 2.82

Total for delivery 343.52

"Energy Supply" same again 1618 kwh

Supply 0.14 226.70

Total for 1618 kwh is 569.73

Sorry about the formatting. I used notepad, but the site doesn't seem to like it. I had everything in columns...

569.73 / 1618 kwh used = .35 per kwh ** Most numbers were rounded up/down to simplify. Some of the charges go out 7 places... I rounded at the second.

Since my average electric bill outside the heating season is about 150 per month and my average heating season bill is about 475 I would surmise that my current electric baseboard heating adds about 325 per month during heating season. I call heating season November through April or 6 months of the year. That equals about 1950 a year in heating costs. That is about 114 kwh per month for the 6 months or 682 kwh per year.

Hopefully, my calculations hold up.

If you are moving to Salem, NH, your current customer charge is half what we pay (it went up last August from just under $14).

When all is said and done, I "paid" 0.30 per kwh. Note that my power bill is actually zero because I have solar and my credits from summer production pay for my electrical use during the winter months. However, I would assume the NH coast does not have snow covered panels for 50% of that time as mine are (January I only had production for 10 days, and this month so far is 0 days).

I used pellet stoves for heat all last month. In the past, when I have used the mini split to heat the main floor (mild winters only), I have used 600-650 kwh. I only have a pellet stove for heat in the basement. I use propane for hot water and it is an on-demand that runs off my combi-boiler. The boiler uses a lot less than when I had a 40 gal stand-alone tank.

1 person and 960 sq/ft house, so take that for what it is worth.

 

[DBoon]

When all is said and done, I "paid" 0.30 per kwh.

Or you could say that you paid $19.81 for the privilege of using any electricity at all, then 23.5 cents/kWh.

 

[DBoon]

Air sealing and insulation have great ROI and with a bit of learning the average DIYer can do a good job with simple tools.

I would go so far as to say that an educated DIYer who really understood what to do and took interest in the work would do a far better job than almost anybody that could be hired. It's easy to do, but it is a lot of detail work, often by hand and tedious, and my experience is that nobody is very motivated to do that work well except for the person who is going to benefit the most from it.

 

[woodgeek]

I would go so far as to say that an educated DIYer who really understood what to do and took interest in the work would do a far better job than almost anybody that could be hired. It's easy to do, but it is a lot of detail work, often by hand and tedious, and my experience is that nobody is very motivated to do that work well except for the person who is going to benefit the most from it.

The pros that came in to airseal the few things I couldn't reach... they told me that I did a far better job than they would have.

They also did a 'before' and 'after' blower door test, and I told the guy what the before test would be. He said 'No way, this kinda house never scores that low' and.... I was right. He asked me how I knew, and I said I measured natural air exchange on low wind days in the winter with a hygrometer and tracking how much water I put in the humidifier. A simple mass balance calculation. Later, his boss wanted to meet me.

They had to work hard to get the after number low enough to get paid.

 

[sloeffle]

Since I have money in that Vanguard ETF, I will let you slide.

Exactly my point. It's kind of hard to spend money on a project that only pays you back 5 - 7% when you are making triple that in the market.

3rd vote for air sealing, and insulation. It pays you back 24x7 365 days a year. I'd do that, and then see what you are spending on electric at that point and then make the decision if a mini split is worth investing in. Do you currently have AC? Haven't see any posts about that.

 

[Burnin Since 1991]

Exactly my point. It's kind of hard to spend money on a project that only pays you back 5 - 7% when you are making triple that in the market.

3rd vote for air sealing, and insulation. It pays you back 24x7 365 days a year. I'd do that, and then see what you are spending on electric at that point and then make the decision if a mini split is worth investing in. Do you currently have AC? Haven't see any posts about that.

Agreed. We have a pretty loud thru the wall 14000 btu, 110v AC in the back of the house, family room. And we have a Midea 8000 btu, 100v AC upstairs in the bedroom. We have ceiling fans in every room so cooling with those to units is sufficient for the time being. We have been running this config since 1989 with different AC units but about the same btu's. I also just installed new skylights in the family room with the solar shades, so on those really hot days we can block out more of the sun.

I'm onboard with the insulation. We definitely need more in the attic. For sure all the outlets/ switches need to be sealed and more insulation around the windows and doors. I have decent double pane replacement windows around the whole house. They, like me are getting to be antiques, but they are in good shape and work as good as the day they were installed.

In point #1 on post 1, I have done an extensive job in the utility room. New HWH and water softener, all new insulation, top to bottom. I sealed all the air leaks and there has been a marked improvement with drafts.

Tightening up the house is going to wind up in phase 2 along with updating the heating/ cooling system upgrade.

I agree. But in my experience AIRSEALING projects can easily pay >25% for decades. If OP has an older house that has not been pro airsealed he should look into to, esp with baseboard heat.

I would normally say call your utility for that, but I have little confidence that they will do the job correctly in MA.

On my electric bill I pay (mandatory) into a program called mass save. I've managed to get some great dealson electric items such as thermostats, led bulbs, power strips etc. They do home energy surveys as part of the program and then subsidized amounts for the work they do.

They did an audit on the house our family owns on cape cod and found the insulation in the garage ceiling / bedroom floor was non existent so they did a blow in insulation and also they added insulation in the attic. It made a huge difference.

I would agree. Air sealing and insulation have great ROI and with a bit of learning the average DIYer can do a good job with simple tools.

I'm inclined to agree. It's on the phase 2 list so we can decide later on who's going to do it.

If you are moving to Salem, NH, your current customer charge is half what we pay (it went up last August from just under $14).


View attachment 345991

When all is said and done, I "paid" 0.30 per kwh. Note that my power bill is actually zero because I have solar and my credits from summer production pay for my electrical use during the winter months. However, I would assume the NH coast does not have snow covered panels for 50% of that time as mine are (January I only had production for 10 days, and this month so far is 0 days).

I used pellet stoves for heat all last month. In the past, when I have used the mini split to heat the main floor (mild winters only), I have used 600-650 kwh. I only have a pellet stove for heat in the basement. I use propane for hot water and it is an on-demand that runs off my combi-boiler. The boiler uses a lot less than when I had a 40 gal stand-alone tank.

1 person and 960 sq/ft house, so take that for what it is worth.

It's just another way to get rich on our backs, these "customer charges". Like we have a choice about being a customer or not.

$.30 is a bit better than .35 but they have a customer base that needs them and boy do they know it.

I did have thoughts about off-peak power, but for my class of use they don't offer it. Only to businesses that use over 200kw. They do give a reduced rate for heat pumps users, but I can't find that info right now.

Thanks again for your responses.

I will have an update either tomorrow or Friday.

 

[Burnin Since 1991]

I was reading the thread about the guy from Alaska building an off-grid home and I got thinking.

Hi, I have some questions about which wood stove would be best for a 1,800 square foot off grid log home in interior Alaska where temps on some days can drop to negative -58 below zero Fahrenheit.

This will be my first house and fully off grid. I want to get it done right the first time. The house will be a prefab cabin kit and I'd like to get ideas from those who have lived experience with wood stoves in cold climates before I fully sign on with the contractor with the building process. I'm trying to decide the best place for the woodstove for optimum heat distribution throughout the cabin whether the woodstove should be placed central in the center of the cabin similar to a Blaze King style stove or a corner style wood stove? Heat rises but, will there be enough heat to reach the second floor or will I most likely have to put a wood stove in upstairs?

The house will be a 1,800 square foot log home with 3 bedrooms, 2 bathrooms, 2 floors. What would you recommend for company/brand of woodstove and which size for my specific home and location of the stove? A stove that requires the fewest number of logs to be burnt over the winter months that will save money daily, monthly and annually. Fewest cords possible. Long burn times, fewest cords per year, saving money and effective heat distribution are my top priority. I do not want a stove that I have to feed quite often and cools off quickly. Do catalytic stoves produce the longest burn times?

Are the Woodstock Soapstone Progress Hybrid and Blaze King King 40 and Hearthstone Manchester the top performers for longest burn times or are there others out there that outperform them?

Is there anything I should know about and to let the contractor know about? All your lived experiences and what you learned along the way would be greatly appreciated.

My woodstove is a steel, late 80's model. It has firebrick and a secondary burn chamber. It works quite well for us. I buy well seasoned mixed hardwoods from a very reputable guy. (I scrounge when I can)

I use between 1 1/2 cords to 2 cords a season. I plan to build some additional wood racks in phase 2 which should hold 3+ cords of wood. I have a seasonal stack of wood outside my backdoor that holds a cord. Out along my driveway I have 2 +/- cords stacked up. I will move the driveway and backdoor wood to the new racks and go from there. I don't have much room, but I think I have enough room to get at least a year a head. Next fall, I will move a cord + to the backdoor again and backfill with another delivery. That wood will be for the following season, etc...

This summer (phase 2) I was/ am going to do one of two things. Increase the thermal mass around my stove to get more radiant heat -OR- buy a new woodstove that has better heat radiating construction.

I've been researching stoves for 4 or 5 months and I'm up to speed on the ins and outs of a new stove. I don't really need any advice about a new stove at this point.

After the heating season I am going to remove my stove and build a new hearth. The temp one I built in 1989 is due for an upgrade. I was newly married with 2 kids and a new to us home and money was tight. I also have about 6 feet of single wall stove pipe that I am going to replace with DVL double wall. Everything else above the stovepipe is good, though I will inspect it in the spring.

sorry, the pics a little blurry, I only use a flip phone so...

The floor is concrete with carpeting. I am going to remove the carpet and build a hearth. With the goal being increasing thermal mass I am thinking something thick like cobble stones. I would also cut out the wood on the back wall (knee wall?) as it is foundation/ concrete about 3 feet high from the floor. After that I'm not sure if I would continue up the wall to the ceiling or not. The hearth will most likely end just under the wood shelf. I think cutting it out wouldn't look right. All clearances and R factors will be observed. My stove has all the clearance listed on the back. The current installation exceeds all the requirements.

The outlet will be moved somewhat to the right, away from the hearth. The other is a phone jack and it will be deleted.

My original thought was remove the stove, build the hearth and then get the new stove. I can't do a stove install anymore so I would have to pay for the install, plus it's easier to get the permits and pass the town/insurance inspection.

As you can probably tell, I'm thinking build the new hearth and putting the old steel stove back to try it out. I want to see if it helps to prevent the temperature swings of the steel stove. More thermal mass will probably cut down on the amount of wood, I burn but I'm not even concerned about that at this point.

What are your thoughts?

 

[Burnin Since 1991]

My wife wants to use ceramic tile for the hearth. Maybe use clay bricks for mass and then the ceramic tile on top? Here is the tile she wants

 

[stoveliker]

The "more mass for more radiative heat" doesn't make much sense to me.
Your stove is as radiant as they come.

If you are adding mass on the ground (hearth), that'll heat up and then radiate both down and up. I.e. part of the heat will radiate down (crawlspace?)
Of course things are radiating down now too.
Best to insulate under the hearth therefore.

If you were talking about adding mass around the stove, you're not gaining anything - in fact, it'll feel less radiant because you'll be spreading out the heat flow into the room over a bit longer time and the same heat input will now come from a larger surface area (of the surrounding mass). As a result radiant heat intensity will go down, and your perception of heat even more so.

 

[Burnin Since 1991]

The "more mass for more radiative heat" doesn't make much sense to me.
Your stove is as radiant as they come.

If you are adding mass on the ground (hearth), that'll heat up and then radiate both down and up. I.e. part of the heat will radiate down (crawlspace?)
Of course things are radiating down now too.
Best to insulate under the hearth therefore.

If you were talking about adding mass around the stove, you're not gaining anything - in fact, it'll feel less radiant because you'll be spreading out the heat flow into the room over a bit longer time and the same heat input will now come from a larger surface area (of the surrounding mass). As a result radiant heat intensity will go down, and your perception of heat even more so.

The house is a slab. No basement/ crawl space. So you're saying just go with the tile and forget the mass?

 

[stoveliker]

I don't think you're going to have any measurable effect of additional mass on the ground.

Regardless of whether you add mass, you want whatever gets warm (tile or mass) to radiate only upwards, so put some r value underneath. That will save some heat from going down leading to more heat in your room.

 

[Burnin Since 1991]

I don't think you're going to have any measurable effect of additional mass on the ground.

Regardless of whether you add mass, you want whatever gets warm (tile or mass) to radiate only upwards, so put some r value underneath. That will save some heat from going down leading to more heat in your room.

Cement board and tile have an r value but it's pretty low. Any recommendations? This is new ground for me.

Thanks

 

[stoveliker]

Micore.

But I'd be weary of making the hearth too high

 

[Burnin Since 1991]

Micore.

But I'd be weary of making the hearth too high

I was looking for micore. I can't seem to find it at either of the two local big boxes. I type in micore and it changes it to micro... then I quote "micore" and I get nada. I also tried calling it Mineral Fiber Board with no luck.

My old/ current hearth is about 2 inches high. I know exactly where it is as I'm always tripping over it.

 

[bogieb]

I was looking for micore. I can't seem to find it at either of the two local big boxes. I type in micore and it changes it to micro... then I quote "micore" and I get nada. I also tried calling it Mineral Fiber Board with no luck.

My old/ current hearth is about 2 inches high. I know exactly where it is as I'm always tripping over it.

search for Micore 300 fiber board

 

[Burnin Since 1991]

Micore 300 fiber board

The only hit I can find is Kamco which is a distributor out of Nashua

Google Search

The first three hits are Micore 300. The rest are MDF and other stuff.

 

[stoveliker]

I have not bought this before, so I don't know. I do see another active thread that's going to do something similar

G

Post in thread 'DYI Hearth pad - In order: 5/8" plywood, 1/2" Micore 300, 1/2" Durock, and ceramic tiles'

Feb 5, 2026

Oups, you got me thinking about the exiting floor.... Yes 1 5/8" screws would be too short indeed because I also have 1/4" plywood under the vinyl.

So a better choice would be: #9 x 2 in. Star Drive Torx Bugle Head R4 Multi-Purpose Wood Screw (110-Pack)

Highlights​

• For use in wood, particle-board, cement fiberboard, plastic, sheet metal
• Star drive eliminates stripping for improved productivity
• Zip-tip point eliminates the need to predrilled and provides easy starts into wood
• CEE thread enlarges hole to reduce splitting, thus eliminating rework
• W-cut...

• Gmarcil

• 

 

[EbS-P]

I don't think you're going to have any measurable effect of additional mass on the ground.

Regardless of whether you add mass, you want whatever gets warm (tile or mass) to radiate only upwards, so put some r value underneath. That will save some heat from going down leading to more heat in your room.

And the heat moving through area of the hearth pad probably pails in comparison to the rest of the concrete floor.