Dealer Education and Seasoned wood

[Kenster]

Do stove dealers ever try to educate buyers on the importance of using properly seasoned wood? We see so many new stove owners show up on this board wondering why the 'seasoned' wood they just bought from the nice guy down the road won't burn. It happens all the time. Every day there is a new post like that. These poor guys seem surprised that green wood won't burn.
If I was a stove dealer I would maintain a large inventory of seasoned wood and sell it at a fair price to new owners. The owners would instantly be pleased with the product because they would have the properly seasoned fuel to give them a warm, efficient, and clean burn. That equals happy, not disappointed customers.

Sounds like good customer service and an opportunity to make a little extra money.

On the flip side of this... it amazes me that there are so many people who do no research before buying a stove.

 

[Mrs. Krabappel]

I did research. I just didn't start three years ahead. I talked to anybody I knew who had a stove irl. Guess, what? They all burn unseasoned wood.

And yes, my stove shop talked up parking the wood for a year or two.

 

[bogydave]

So wood stove dealers should say: "Join "hearth.com" before you light your first fire. & burn dry, seasoned wood" (learn what seasoned wood is on "hearth.com")
They should also give one stove load of good dry seasoned wood ,to be burned in the 3rd or 4th fire. Just for a good reference of what & why seasoned wood is & it's importance.

Lesson 1: Burning wood is not for the meek, un-educated or lazy.
Lesson 2: Reading the stoves operator's manual is not just for new wood burners. (the new stoves have some different features)
Lesson 3: Telling an old-time wood burner how much better 2 year old seasoned birch burns than 3 month old just cut; *** is useless.

Tip 1: buy seasoned wood in the spring/summer, you can get a better deal. Then stack it up & season it for next winter (not the coming one)
Tip 2: cut & season your own, get at least 1 year ahead but 2 years is optimum.
Tip 3. If it's your first years burning wood, join "Hearth.com" & learn how to season wood, why, what it is & do it "right". So next year, it becomes "fun" &"rewarding"
Tip 4: Beg, borrow, bum, (buy, if possible) but get one stove load of known good ,dry, seasoned, old wood, burn it in your stove. Remember what it looked like, how well it burned, (only then, will you understand)

Stove dealers I'm familiar with say :"burn dry wood" but fail to tell you what dry wood really is.
Stove manuals say : "burn dry seasoned wood" but fail to tell you what dry seasoned wood is.

Hearth.com members say: "burn dry seasoned wood, tell you what dry seasoned wood is, why it needs to be dry, teach how how to season it by type (wood ID), know
many types of stoves & teach how to operate them at peak performance. Know the equipment, tools, methods for processing or buying wood.
You learn that "It's the Wood" that cause most all wood burning issues. Shared various experiences & knowledge will make anyone a "seasoned wood burner"

 

[Shari]

 

[krex1010]

The problem is that the term "seasoned" is very subjective. People having been burning in woodstoves forever and in the older stoves, alot of people considered 3 month old wood to be seasoned, because they could burn it and it heated their homes. The new EPA stoves have only been around for like 15 minutes and they require "seasoned" wood. Old views and thought processes die hard, especially when there are plenty of people still burning older stoves that can do ok with 3 month "seasoned" wood. Alot of wood dealers burn wood, and most probably burn in older stoves, so for them calling 3 month old wood "seasoned" isn't being intentionally dishonest, it just what they think( lying about how long the wood has been split is another story). The moral of the story is that heating with wood requires planning ahead. Kinda like cooking a great meal, you have to figure out how much food you need, get all the ingredients before you start cooking and then "season"'to taste. So don't go blaming mr Perdue because the chicken you cooked is bland, it's your job to "season"'the bird, mr Perdue just grows chickens. Enough rambling from me.

 

[Backwoods Savage]

Then let us quit using the word "seasoned."

Problem for stove sellers would be where to get this dry wood. In addition, some sell so many that it would really be difficult to get the amount of wood that would be required. For example, a big sale even and a couple hundred stoves sold over the weekend. That would take a large inventory of wood.

But if I sold stoves, I do believe I would seriously look at providing at least a face cord of good dry wood with every sale. You could build the price of the wood into the total price of the stove. Then I would explain to the customer why they need this dry wood. I would also explain about the popular belief of cut now and burn tomorrow. I would also explain the stupidity of claiming pine should not be burned. There are many more things to add to the list but this gives a little idea of how I feel on this subject. I also believe if this was done with every sale that you would get a lot of referral business and this is the best way to get new business.


Like the OP, it also amazes me how little some new wood burners know and how little they research. Most go into a store and listen to some "sales talk" and it sounds good to them because they had never heard this before. I recall one shop I visited one time and this salesman started on a big sales talk....without asking any questions first! Everything he said sounded scripted to me and was mostly baloney. When I asked a couple of questions he was totally baffled and could not answer. He knew practically nothing about wood stoves.

 

[oldspark]

bogydave
"Lesson 3: Telling an old-time wood burner how much better 2 year old seasoned birch burns than 3 month old just cut; *** is useless"
That's nice, it that why they call you bogydave?

 

[firefighterjake]

The problem as I see it . . . stove shops are in the business of selling stoves . . . not firewood . . . just like most car dealerships sell cars, but not the gas that goes into them . . . I mean you could buy a car that requires a better grade of fuel and the dealership may or may not mention this fact . . . but it it up to you to educate yourself on what your vehicle . . . or stove . . . needs for fuel.

 

[Remmy122]

I'll admit I was one of those guys when I got my stove. I am very luck though in that my brother in-law and father in-law had done a ton of research for me and knew a lot about what I was looking for and found the right fit (they dont sell a lot of stoves where I live so it was easier for them to go out and look at the products).

My problems is buying wood that has been sitting for 1+ years. I think my problem is that I consider all people to basically honest, and when it comes to making a dollar a lot arent. The other thing Ive learned is that buying wood in Oct. is alot better than buying in Jan. Im guessing he sold all the good stuff and was still willing to give me his green wood (even though he gave me more of it he didnt tell me it would be ready to burn).

I guess its what they say "live and learn". I plan on having all my wood cut myself for next year so I dont have to rely on any ones honesty

 

[Kenster]

The problem as I see it . . . stove shops are in the business of selling stoves . . . not firewood . . . just like most car dealerships sell cars, but not the gas that goes into them . . . I mean you could buy a car that requires a better grade of fuel and the dealership may or may not mention this fact . . . but it it up to you to educate yourself on what your vehicle . . . or stove . . . needs for fuel.

Jake, I'm not sure your analogy works. When you buy a car, you take it for a test drive. The Salesman points out all the bells and whistles. You get to test and play with everything. You get a detailed owners manual telling you specifically what grade of fuel you should burn. What weight of oil, etc. The owners manual does not tell you to burn "well refined gasoline." You basically have three choices of grades. That's it.

Cord wood is not regulated and tested by the state. The spectrum of dryness runs from fresh cut green to crumbled and rotten. You can't drive down to the corner lot and buy the exact same quality of wood time after time after time. A good dealer can ensure a happy customer by showing him samples of properly seasoned wood. Let the owner get his hands on some. Let the owner compare a nicely seasoned split to a fresh green one. To create a really happy customer, the dealer could give him (or sell him) a quarter cord of ready to burn wood and encourage him to go out and get next years wood NOW!
Maybe the dealer could even establish a good relationship with an honest, dependable wood dealer to which the new owner cold be referred.

You don't get to test drive a new wood stove. It's not necessarily the dealers job to educate the buyer on his fuel. But, speaking from a background of over 25 years in Customer Service positions, it should be part of the total package the dealer offers to make a customer happy. It should also prevent many return visits and phone calls from customers complaining the stove isn't operating properly. A few minutes spent educating the customer on wood is a great investment. It's called being Pro-Active.

 

[krex1010]

I hate when people talk about selling seasoned wood and complaining that they can't buy seasoned wood. Give me some wood and I'll decide when it's ready to burn in my stove. And that's the mentality that I think you should have if you want to heat with wood. There is only one person responsible for me having dry wood and that is me.

And about those salesmen at stove shops, I have been in dozens of shops and i think I have run across maybe 2 guys that I feel were knowledgeable about their products and heating with wood. If I listened to what most salesmen recommended for my home I would have a teeny insert that I would be feeding every 3 hours and I would still be chilly. Most of the salesmen I ran into didn't heat their homes with wood and the only woodstove experience they had was running the working stoves in the showrooms. Most could not answer simple questions without looking at the brochure, and god forbid the info wasn't in the brochure.

My advice to someone who wants to get a woodstove would be this, buy/scrounge a years worth of wood now, before you even think about buying a stove. Learn about heating with wood, research the subject before you go to a stove shop, learn enough that you can make an educated decision on what type and size stove you need without relying on a salesman to make the decision for you. And if you don't want to install it yourself, that's fine, but you better know what should be included in a safe and proper install and make sure that the company installing it does it right.

 

[firefighterjake]

The problem as I see it . . . stove shops are in the business of selling stoves . . . not firewood . . . just like most car dealerships sell cars, but not the gas that goes into them . . . I mean you could buy a car that requires a better grade of fuel and the dealership may or may not mention this fact . . . but it it up to you to educate yourself on what your vehicle . . . or stove . . . needs for fuel.

Jake, I'm not sure your analogy works. When you buy a car, you take it for a test drive. The Salesman points out all the bells and whistles. You get to test and play with everything. You get a detailed owners manual telling you specifically what grade of fuel you should burn. What weight of oil, etc. The owners manual does not tell you to burn "well refined gasoline." You basically have three choices of grades. That's it.

Cord wood is not regulated and tested by the state. The spectrum of dryness runs from fresh cut green to crumbled and rotten. You can't drive down to the corner lot and buy the exact same quality of wood time after time after time. A good dealer can ensure a happy customer by showing him samples of properly seasoned wood. Let the owner get his hands on some. Let the owner compare a nicely seasoned split to a fresh green one. To create a really happy customer, the dealer could give him (or sell him) a quarter cord of ready to burn wood and encourage him to go out and get next years wood NOW!
Maybe the dealer could even establish a good relationship with an honest, dependable wood dealer to which the new owner cold be referred.

You don't get to test drive a new wood stove. It's not necessarily the dealers job to educate the buyer on his fuel. But, speaking from a background of over 25 years in Customer Service positions, it should be part of the total package the dealer offers to make a customer happy. It should also prevent many return visits and phone calls from customers complaining the stove isn't operating properly. A few minutes spent educating the customer on wood is a great investment. It's called being Pro-Active.

I agree with you on some points . . . perhaps my analogy is not the best as cord wood quality is not regulated . . . only the amount . . . and the quality really will vary from dealer to dealer as you mentioned . . . you cannot expect to go from one dealer to another like you would go to a gas station and always know you are getting wood that is comparable.

I also agree that it could be a beneficial thing for a dealer to educate their buyers . . . then again it could be a hard sell for them to tell folks that they could buy their stove, but they really need well seasoned wood to burn in it and oftentimes this means wood that was cut and split a year or so earlier . . . especially hard when it's Fall and they have a chance to make a sale and if they don't make the sale it could mean not making pay roll . . . add to that the fact that another stove dealer down the road might have no issues in telling the customer that their stove can use any type of wood in it . . . again . . . they're not in the business to sell wood, they're selling stoves . . . although you are absolutely right in saying that in the long term educating the customer could have some very good benefits.

I think expecting folks to stockpile wood for every sale is asking quite a bit . . . I mean one could argue that it would be like selling a car with a full tank of gas . . . but I think the dealers' profit margins are probably not all that robust with just the sale of the stoves . . . asking them to throw in some free wood might be a bit much.

In defense of some dealers and manufacturers . . . my Jotul manual isn't the best . . . but it does at least recommend wood that was cut 6-14 months previously . . . again . . . it could be a little more detailed and specific in my own opinion . . . but at least it hints at the fact that the wood needs time.

On one issue you are wrong . . . there is at least one stove manufacturer where you can test drive the stove . . . and return it if you do not like it . . . even after several months . . . Woodstock . . . which probably ties into your comment about customer service . . . these folks get it and know all about customer service.

 

[Stump_Branch]

Then let us quit using the word "seasoned."

while I can enjoy the reasoning behind why that term is used (sitting over seasons) I agree here. To many people just use the word, no practice. It is as if the term "seasoned" must be no more then 5 words from firewood. I do like the term Dry, although then your going to get morons who are going to tell you yes it was stored under a tarp....

Im not sure of the answer, to be honest. I guess buyer beware. That or buy that t-shirt shari's got to when you go meet the wood dealer.

 

[bogydave]

bogydave
"Lesson 3: Telling an old-time wood burner how much better 2 year old seasoned birch burns than 3 month old just cut; *** is useless"
That's nice, it that why they call you bogydave?

No, my golf score, is usually some kind of a bogey, sometimes a quadruple (bogeydave was used by somebody)
**
It was from a trip I made when I was cutting wood last winter on the highway clearing project.
I met several wood burners there & we were waiting for the feller to move a (safe distance) so we could go
in & load up. I was talking about how long it took to dry the wood, & one of the guys said
he was able to take it home & burn it today. I said "REALLY???".
He said he's been doing it that way for 30 years.
I tried to explain to him how much more efficient, cleaner & better dry wood is to burn.
"He basically told me I was pretty un-educated in burning wood in Alaska & full of something stinky."
He laughed that I was taking a log that was a standing dead spruce, but i needed some wood for this
year & it was as dry as I could get. He called it a waste of time & useless.

I met several folks cutting wood to take it home & burn it right away. When I asked, they all had
creosote issues & that seemed normal to them, "it was caused because we burn birch & the bark causes it".
was there explanation.

I learned to go & cut wood, & discuss chain saws, not how & why to dry & season firewood.

Maybe it's time to advertise wood by it's "moisture content" not the undefined term "seasoned"
Even 3 year old wood improperly seasoned may have a high moisture content.

 

[oldspark]

bogydave, not all us old time wood burners think that way, even 30 years ago most of my friends seasoned their wood.
I was confused by the spelling of your name, bogey is for golf and bogy is for an evil or mischievous spirit or something that causes annoyance or harassment so it seemed to fit, sorry. :lol:

 

[bogydave]

bogydave, not all us old time wood burners think that way, even 30 years ago most of my friends seasoned their wood.
I was confused by the spelling of your name, bogey is for golf and bogy is for an evil or mischievous spirit or something that causes annoyance or harassment so it seemed to fit, sorry. :lol:

No harm done,
No bad intentions were ever felt.
my experience with the guy burning green wood for 30+ years & still
was a good one to share.
They guy wasn't much older than me, just set in his ways. & that's OK with me, He is a hard worker
& he's out there cutting wood to heat his home.

I may be mischievous, but not the other.
I've learned much from the 30+ years of wood burning experience guy who do & things they have learned & done it right
& share their knowledge. Learning is fun.
This site has been a great source of information.
I've got 30+ years experience too, but still able to learn & to improve in many areas (like learning how to retire.)
From burning coal in WV & PA, to now burning birch & spruce in Alaska since 1982.
But just in the past few years, learned & understand & witnessed how well good dry seasoned wood burns,
especially in the new Catalytic stove I've had for just over a year. The learning curve, to burn a cat stove, has been fun.

Apology accepted; but was not needed, I didn't know you were upset & you didn't know that I intended the "Old-timer" as a joke
I am one of them "old-timers" . But I joined "Hearth.com" & learned some stuff about fire wood, & proved it to be true.

 

[oldspark]

I was not upset just wanted to make a point about us "old timers", I figured you were a whipper snapper, if I would have know you were one of us I would have let it slide. :lol:

 

[RNLA]

I am also fed up with all the wood guys on CL and in the paper saying "seasoned" when they know damned well it is not. In Washington state we could actualy go to weights and measures they have language about true cords and the quality. Hard for the uneducated to do though. The guys selling wood around here are usually not seasoning or drying the wood they sell... I do not think they could be educated nor convinced!

 

[eujamfh]

I know my friend got a stove last year. I told him to get wood early or he would be in trouble. He did not heed the advice and got a stove and some "seasoned wood" locally. His wife called the stove dealer and company complaining the stove did not work. It worked...just not well with wood that hissed and spit.

He was trying to burn c/s/s oak probably four months old.

Both the dealer and manufacture told them it was the wood...now, I would think as a dealer, if you harped on wood being seasoned, you may chase a few people away if they actually listened to your advice.

If I was a dealer, I would give the advice...but also figure a way to include some wood or have some available for purchase to ensure folks did not walk out with the intention to come back another year.

 

[krex1010]

Think about this; a fairly honest firewood dealer will split wood from late winter to late spring, that will give him a stockpile of wood that is 6 months old come November. That wood is split and left in a huge pile. Around here he will get about $200 a cord for that wood. Is there any seasoning going on anywhere except for the outer part of the pile? Probably not much. So to give his customers the driest wood he can he should now take the time to stack it in nice rows to give it sun and air. This adds a considerable amount of time and laborite the process. Should that wood still cost $200? I can garuntee that wood is now going to be at least $300 a cord if not more. I know how much time and effort I put in to produce a cord of seasoned wood, and I have all the equipment that the average firewood guy has. I don't know exactly what i would charge for my good wood but it would be a heck of a lot more than $300!

So let me pose a question to the folks who rely on buying their firewood. Do you really want to buy truly seasoned firewood at the price that it would actually cost (I would think at bare minimum a 50% price increase) if the firewood dealers were to do what it takes to have truly dry wood? Or do you think the smarter way to go would be to buy green wood at the current prices and dry it yourself?

As for dealers giving some good wood to new customers to show how the stove should work, I think the only feasible way to do that would be for them to have some of those small bundles of kiln dried wood that supermarkets sell. Maybe they could give a bundle or two with the stove. Most simply don't have the time to be in the firewood business or the space to keep alot of firewood around.

 

[bogydave]

I know that the CL & other wood sellers always says "Seasoned Wood"
Well it is, just it may not be seasoned to your liking.
It may just be seasoned 3 months, but it is seasoned.

Realize this guy cut split stacked loaded & delivered you fire wood. That is real work & they deserve some respect.
I've cut fire wood for over 30 years, it's work. I've sold a few loads when I needed gas money, but it was mostly for my own use.
I never thought I got enough money for the wood I sold. There is allot of work into a load of CSS wood.

I believe it is up to the buyer.
If you don't like a sellers product, don't buy it. "Free enterprise", "Capitalism".
Wood burners by now should have learned to buy wood 1 year ahead.

I bet if you talked to some of the "Wood sellers", told them you'd give them $50 more per cord if they would store the wood for a year & season it longer.
I keep hearing wood sellers getting bashed. Come on. Free enterprise.
Isn't their work & use of their space worth some $$? If certain buyers want "Better fire wood". Isn't "better" worth more?

If you don't have space to store it to season it to your liking, Rent some space for $$ & season the wood in the rented space for "x" years
until the wood meets your specifications.

I know I sound like a grump, but the work, wood cutters put into a load of wood is "Real Physical Hard WorK"
Wear & tear on the body, tools & equipment.
Put yourself in their shoes & go cut 30 40 or 50 cords of wood in a year.
Try to sell it & make a profit.
& then listen to folks complain about your product.
How would you feel.
Realize most of these guys are doing it part time to make some extra cash for them & their family.

If you don't like the product, don't buy it.
But complaining & bashing their Work isn't going to heat your house.

"They have my respect" It's hard work. They've earned it.
These guys like hard work or they wouldn't be doing it. The small profit they make is well earned, seasoned to you liking or not.



Grumpy Dave.
Healing from recent back surgery & wanting to be able to go cut fire wood & can't.
Stuck watching TV & on the computer, inside barely able to load the stove.
& I got wood laying in the back yard that needs cut split & stacked, ARRRG.
My wife hid my chainsaw, smart woman.

I may have to have some wood delivered this year for 2013.
If I do, I'm going to respectfully & gladly shake the men's hands that deliver it.
They earned their money. They ain't bankers.
There are very few "dis-honest" wood cutters.

Sorry if I offended anyone, just I got the "addiction" bad & I "NEED" TO CUT FIRE WOOD
Withdrawals & the shakes when I read & see pictures of all the fun going on here on the forum & all I can do is read about it.

The smell of fresh cut wood, chain saw odor & noise, the perfect round, the feeling of looking at a days work. UMMMMM. I miss it

BYE

 

[krex1010]

Hey grumpy Dave, hope you heal up good and fast.
And as someone who worked for a tree service/firewood guy all through high school and college I agree with your words. It is hard work, hard on your body and equipment. In my opinion the only thing a firewood dealer owes his customer is to give an honest cord, be honest about when the wood was split and be respectful of the customers property when delivering.

 

[oldspark]

Yea dave get well soon, If I tried to sell my firewood for what I thought it was worth I wood starve to death.

 

[wood-fan-atic]

Hey grumpy Dave, hope you heal up good and fast.
And as someone who worked for a tree service/firewood guy all through high school and college I agree with your words. It is hard work, hard on your body and equipment. In my opinion the only thing a firewood dealer owes his customer is to give an honest cord, be honest about when the wood was split and be respectful of the customers property when delivering.

If ALL wood sellers did this - "be honest about when the wood was split" - no one would have a right to complain. Unfortunately, the VAST majority of the time, the complaints stem from (and rightly so) the simple fact that the seller lied about when the wood was c/s/s. If I went to buy milk - and the guy who put the date on it "lied", when I got home and tried to use it, I would find out quick that I was lied to....and I would have a right to be PISSED OFF. same thing with ANY other product that is 'time sensative'. No liars- no complaints. But.....sadly, people confuse 'capitalism' with dishonesty, in search of the almighty dollar....and the golden rule that I learned and taught my children is, well, rare at best.
NOBODY who knows anything about woodburning will say producing firewood is easy .....but please dont make a hero out of a crook who cut and split his wood yesterday, is selling it as 'seasoned', and tells customers its been stacked for a year. Lets call a spade a spade,here, okay? Too many honest, trusting, perhaps 'green' woodburners have been victims of fraud.

Glad I'm 2 1/2 years ahead.

 

[bogydave]

I'd call a man that said "this wood was seasoned a year" but was really cut yesterday,
A LIAR!
&
I wouldn't buy his wood.
I would not even buy it if he reduced the price after I examined the wood.
I'd let folks I know about his business practices.
& hope he'd probably go out of business due to poor business prictices.