Dealing with the dreaded exterior chimney

[3fordasho]

In the inspection phase of purchasing a different property. Built in 1982, 3400 sq ft. Had the fireplace inspected and got confirmation of what I pretty much knew- fireplace should not be used. Seams opening up in firebox, damper a bent up metal mess and the cultured stone around the door exposed behind the doors.

Inspector (owner of local fireplace/stove shop) suggested installing an un-insulated liner and coming out of the stone front above the fireplace opening - I could then set my Woodstock PH on the hearth in front of the fireplace opening which would be sealed off. Actually I asked if this could be done and he thought it was a good idea - I suggested an insulated liner at first but he thought the un-insulated would be better because of the existance of the clay flue tiles. So first question insulated or un-insulated liner?

He then mentioned that while the PH / liner would be a huge improvement - the exterior chimney still would act like a huge heat sink sucking heat out of the house and in fact mentioned how cold it was around the fireplace compared to the rest of the house, he then suggested the only fix for that would be to install firring strips/ foam insulation around the exposed exterior chimney and then finish with siding or cultured stone- covering up the existing brick work which is in quite good shape :-(

So looking for advise from other exterior chimney owners - liner/ free standing stove seems like a no-brainer- but what about covering up that chimney - needed?

 

[Charles1981]

Insulated liner a must have. I think that will off-set any need to do whatever he is suggested to the chimney itself.

If you can install a free-standing stove in front of that mantle and block off the current opening then I think you are good to go.

The concern at that point isn't that the masonry chimney would be a heat sink sucking heat from the house, but that the masonry chimney would cool the steel liner and effect draft and increase creosote.

If you line the chimney with insulation, that should be sufficient... in my opinion.

 

[Grisu]

Certainly insulate the liner. The stove will be easier to start, generally draft better and you will have less creosote in the flue. To insulate the fireplace, I would put some Roxul in the back and then close off the opening (with cutout for the pipe) with some sheet-metal, durock, or similar. If you feel this winter that you are still losing too much heat out of the back of the chimney, you can put a chase around it next year.

 

[3fordasho]

Got a liner quote from the guy that inspected the chimney - $3300 liner and install. Seems a bit high and that's for an un-insulated liner. Everywhere I read and advice here says go insulated but this guy doesn't think it's necessary. Time to look elsewhere or do it myself - think I need to get up there and have a look down that chimney and get some measurements.

 

[Grisu]

Got a liner quote from the guy that inspected the chimney - $3300 liner and install. Seems a bit high and that's for an un-insulated liner. Everywhere I read and advice here says go insulated but this guy doesn't think it's necessary. Time to look elsewhere or do it myself - think I need to get up there and have a look down that chimney and get some measurements.

Unless there are confounding factors that we don't know of, yes $3300 for an uninsulated liner plus installation is really high. Did he give you a break-down? There are enough members that have done their own installation. If it is a straight shot down and the clay liner is wide enough it should not be too difficult. Have you checked the width of the damper frame?

 

[jeff_t]

If there's any question about the integrity of the current chimney, get an insulated liner. If I understand correctly, an insulted liner is required if the current chimney doesn't have the proper clearance to combustibles, which is pretty likely.

Cutting a hole thru the chimney and stone will add some expense, but the quote seems high.

 

[3fordasho]

Unless there are confounding factors that we don't know of, yes $3300 for an uninsulated liner plus installation is really high. Did he give you a break-down? There are enough members that have done their own installation. If it is a straight shot down and the clay liner is wide enough it should not be too difficult. Have you checked the width of the damper frame?

No breakdown just the total price. He suggested putting a hole in the stone/brick work above the fireplace for the liners tee to come thru and connect there- I like that idea because getting the liner thru the smoke shelf/damper (or twisted remains of them) looks to be difficult. My Progress Hybrid is rear or top vent so no issues there. Normally I would tackle this job myself but considering the pending move and the desire to be using the stove this winter - time is tight.

 

[mellow]

With 2 or 3 good working people it shouldn't take but 4-6 hours to get that liner put in, and that is unboxing and wrapping the liner and installing the top plate and tee at the bottom. Hopefully you can lean a ladder against the chimney from the roof, if anything else you could rent a bucket truck or similar device to help.

Cut that damper out and install a block off plate, you can do that beforehand.

 

[3fordasho]

He did mention it's only a 1 day job. Un-insulated liner kits run $7-800 tops so that's a lot for 1 day labor....
As far as confounding factors - he didn't even look down the chimney and I don't know what you can tell from the bottom.

With 2 or 3 good working people it shouldn't take but 4-6 hours to get that liner put in, and that is unboxing and wrapping the liner and installing the top plate and tee at the bottom. Hopefully you can lean a ladder against the chimney from the roof, if anything else you could rent a bucket truck or similar device to help.

Cut that damper out and install a block off plate, you can do that beforehand.

 

[Grisu]

Cut that damper out and install a block off plate, you can do that beforehand.

Agree. If the damper is unusable anyway cut it out and install the PH as a rear-vent. Will be much easier and you preserve the look of the fireplace for the future. If you sell the house the new owner would need to put in a new damper anyway so nothing will be lost by cutting it out.

 

[3fordasho]

Good point about preserving the look + a top vent connector pipe to the tee would not allow the flatscreen TV that currently resides there. Plus if the liner's tee is above the smoke shelf/damper - how would you remove the cap for cleaning?

Agree. If the damper is unusable anyway cut it out and install the PH as a rear-vent. Will be much easier and you preserve the look of the fireplace for the future. If you sell the house the new owner would need to put in a new damper anyway so nothing will be lost by cutting it out.

 

[weatherguy]

Good point about preserving the look + a top vent connector pipe to the tee would not allow the flatscreen TV that currently resides there. Plus if the liner's tee is above the smoke shelf/damper - how would you remove the cap for cleaning?

The t should not be that high, look at the specs for the PH, I think its center is 25" high. Im not a do it your selfer and I did my own liner with the help of a friend, not that hard, remove the damper and measure to see how much room you have, a 6 incher should fit no problem.

 

[Charles1981]

Yea I had the same guy load and deliver my stove from the store and install a liner w/ block off for 1600...I kind of thought that was a bit over priced as well considering it only took them 4 hours of work and ~950$ in parts... But oh well. Stove install and liner install wasn't exactly an undertaking I was excited about doing myself, and this guy has been doing it in the area for over 25 years.

 

[bholler]

As long as you have a straight shot decent roof access and enough room in the existing liners it should not be to bad. Which from the pics it looks like you wil so it should not be to bad. And with out knowing the height and type of liner being used the materials could be quite a bit more than 7 to 800. But 3300 sounds like allot especially if its not insulated. But get up there and see what you have before making your decision some installs can be a real pain and we have had some that ended up taking 3 days with 2 experienced pros.

 

[fossil]

I wouldn't bore a hole through that stone and install a bunch of stuff in front for all the tea in China. Besides, it looks as though you'd have to do some sort of hearth extension. The only way I'd do this is rip out whatever's in the way in terms of all the old fireplace stuff & damper, then if the stove won't fit in far enough to do a top exit straight shot, then a rear exit with a tee in the firebox. That fireplace is just too pretty to hose up. Rick

 

[Nick Mystic]

I'm wondering what that small black rectangular box is centered over the fireplace opening? Like many others have said, I wouldn't try cutting a hole through the chimney to connect the flue. Rather, I would go out the back of the stove and into the fireplace opening with a T connector and then straight up the chimney. If you use an insulated liner and insulate a block off plate you should be good to go. You already indicated the metal firebox is damaged and can't be used, so cutting out and removing as much of the damper as needed to make room for the liner to pass through shouldn't be a problem. It can be a nasty job, but so long as you wear the proper safety gear it's not that big a deal if you are somewhat handy with tools. I did all the work myself on a similar installation. My stove shop sold me 20 feet of SS flex liner (Olympia), and all the other necessary pieces for a complete installation for $500. It looks like you will need a longer liner, but $3300 sounds like a total rip off to me. Good Luck.

 

[3fordasho]

I got up on the roof and did some measuring - a 25ft liner will to the trick and the clay liner is 13x13 outside and over 10x10" inside- plenty of room for a 6" insulated liner. Another idiot thing this guy recommended was to cut out the center section of the "bench" and set the stove into that- his thinking was the stone hearth on the floor was not deep enough. I'm not cutting into any stone work- I'll extend the hearth further into the laminate flooring if I have too.

Another step closer to getting this place, the septic systems were inspected today and found to be compliant, just need results from the well water testing. 6 acres with no neighbors that can see me taking a wizz from any direction and over 10k sq ft of toy buildings!
Attached a more recent pic:

 

[firefighterjake]

Cutting a hole as described makes it seem more like a hack job ... I would not go this route if at all possible.

 

[Wormyone]

I would have to start out by saying I second what firefighter jake said about cutting the hole....next, do yourself a favor and do the job right the first time by spending the extra money and insulating the liner. It will pay dividends in the future

 

[3fordasho]

As far as the liner- it's insulated or do nothing. I'm reconsidering the project - I'm thinking a insert would look best in the room and a Blazeking princess insert would be my first choice. Not the best looking insert out there but I'm after performance and a potential 27hr low burn would be really nice.

I would have to start out by saying I second what firefighter jake said about cutting the hole....next, do yourself a favor and do the job right the first time by spending the extra money and insulating the liner. It will pay dividends in the future

 

[branchburner]

I think you would get a lot less heat output with an insert, due to the heat-sink factor. It seems to me your PH siiting out in the room would be a better way to go for max output... but I'm an anti-insert guy in general, anyway.

 

[3fordasho]

Ended up installing my Progress Hybrid in front of the existing fireplace. Princess insert is a 8 week wait and I needed heat now. No regrets, can always install insert later. Soapstone not a great match to the existing stonework but I'm happy. Installed a pre-insulated 6" liner kit from Fireside chimney supply - only place I found that had the pre-insulated stuff and I like it alot - no messing with gluing a loose roll of insulation on to the SS liner and then trying to work that mesh over the entire length - this stuff was ready to go out of the box and the outer layer looks something like the inner SS liner but it's aluminum - does a good job of protecting the insulation on the install. Tonight I remove the old fireplace doors, stuff old fireplace cavity with mineral wool insulation and install block off plate.


Submitted offer on the place Oct 1, closed on Oct 30, first fire last night

 

[begreen]

That looks great Tim and just in time.

 

[3fordasho]

You got that right - dropped the liner down on Sunday, Monday it was 30mph winds, snow (10" of it just north of us) and a cold snap for the next 7 days :-(

That looks great Tim and just in time.