Defiant Install Problem Found - Source Of My Burn Time Woes?

[baerjo]

After figuring out burn techniques and everything since install earlier in the week, and getting at best 6hr burn times, I think I found an install error that's causing my issues.

My Issues:
-Thermostat Control does barely anything.
-Stove heat hard to control.
-Hear wind from outside during burn with flue open.
-Flames never seems to "slow",
-Burn time max, with stove stuffed, is 6hrs...far short of the 14hrs promised by VC.

After seeing somewhere a flame test you can do to check air tightness on the stove I decided to give it a go. In the process I found the oval to round adapter is sitting on the outside of the flue collar instead of on the inside. I think it's supposed to be crimped too. At that point the flame test fails epically. The lighter's flame gets sucked into the seam all around that spot. From all the pictures I've seen that adapter seam is supposed to be inside the flue collar on the stove, and from what I've read possibly crimped as well. Installer company has been contacted and now we wait. Let's hope that was the only issue. This after three months waiting on them.

Image:

 

[30WCF]

Is that double wall?
It’s possibly crimped on the inner layer, and nested in there.
I don’t know this part, so I’ll keep my mouth shut about, if that were the issue, if that air would only be going up the chimney with the draft, or it would actually reverse its way and make it through the baffles and/or cat (not going to pretend to know that stove) and cause faster burn times and hotter temps.

 

[baerjo]

Should be single wall stove pipe, outside portion is double wall.

 

[30WCF]

Outside the house is black double wall stove pipe, or stainless chimney pipe.

 

[baerjo]

After looking at the invoice, correcting myself. Inside black pipe is double wall stove pipe. Outside is stainless steal insulated double wall chimney.

 

[30WCF]

Then, there is a crimped section nested in the flue collar, it doesn’t look like it was nested well, but, it should extend into the collar.

 

[30WCF]

I suspect the draw of the lighter flame is still going up the pipe, rather than fanning the flame in the stove.

 

[baerjo]

So the inner wall portion is supposedly inside the collar, while the outside is not at all tight against it? Why would it draft and have flame from inside the stove slightly visible when looking down at that unsealed gap then? I would think we'd want it properly sealed into the collar, both walls, for a tight seal.

 

[baerjo]

I suspect the draw of the lighter flame is still going up the pipe, rather than fanning the flame in the stove.

Yup what I suspect too, though thought some of that maybe returned to the stove, but then it leaves my lack of ability to control the fire unexplained. Air has to be getting in somewhere for it to burst to 700-750 F and only burn 6 hrs max on a stuffed full load of maple or elm. The temp control on side does not much of anything beyond maybe controlling initial ignition a bit.

 

[30WCF]

I can’t speak for that model, and I must have missed the part where you mentioned visible flames from outside viewing in.
My stove adapter nests inside the collar, and the outer layer goes around the outside of the collar.
I self installed and had to do some tripping nag to get there.
That stove may be different.

 

[30WCF]

is that a cat stove, and the bypass is closed?

 

[baerjo]

I can’t speak for that model, and I must have missed the part where you mentioned visible flames from outside viewing in.
My stove adapter nests inside the collar, and the outer layer goes around the outside of the collar.
I self installed and had to do some tripping nag to get there.
That stove may be different.

Originally that's what I thought must have been done too. I did a lot of reading online, on forums, etc... and everywhere agreed it's supposed to go inside the collar, possibly crimped a bit to get it to fit. One person in a review even stated they got it into a Vermont Castings similar model but it took some doing without crimping.

 

[30WCF]

What kind of double wall do you have? Brand and model?

 

[baerjo]

is that a cat stove, and the bypass is closed?

It's a cat stove and at 500F I flip from open damper to cat per manual. I've learned that if I want to get 6hrs out of it I have to flip temp lever on the right side as low as it goes after flipping the cat on. Even then it eventually reaches 700-750F, just takes a bit longer to do it.

 

[30WCF]

It's a cat stove and at 500F I flip from open damper to cat per manual. I've learned that if I want to get 6hrs out of it I have to flip temp lever on the right side as low as it goes after flipping the cat on. Even then it eventually reaches 700-750F, just takes a bit longer to do it.

Is that a full load of wood?

 

[baerjo]

What kind of double wall do you have? Brand and model?

It's all Duratech, the inside black and the outside SS. 6DVL-ORAD - OVAL TO ROUND 6" DOUBLE WALL <-the oval to round adapter.

 

[baerjo]

Is that a full load of wood?

Yup that is stuffed to the gills as much as I can get in there and still close the top load door.

 

[30WCF]

Well, now I’m just spitballing, we should wait till someone more informed on this stove chimes in., but do you have…



Optional accessories from the manual

 

[stoveliker]

I don't know this stove either, but air leaking into the flue there is not going to help the fire. In fact it'll decrease the draft in the stove because part of the chimneys suction is now used not to suck air thru the stove but to suck air in thru that leak.

Indeed it should not be leaking much there. Air tight sealing is not needed but you should not be seeing flames there.

Short burn times, however, suggest (also) a leak into the firebox.

Are your gaskets passing the dollar bill test? Is the window not movable in the door frame? (Two flat hands on two sides of the window when cold. Be sure not to lift the door off its hinges if possible.) Oa the ash drawer closed properly (dollar bill test)?

How tall is your chimney? Too high draft due to a tall chimney could be a cause. Do you have a key damper?

 

[baerjo]

Well, now I’m just spitballing, we should wait till someone more informed on this stove chimes in., but do you have…

View attachment 304603

Optional accessories from the manual


View attachment 304602

I do believe that is what I have. I read that paragraph above what you circled, is the rest of it saying that the draft up between layers is a design feature? I did look inside a lot closer and I do see the inner wall is inserted all the way into the collar, it's just the outer that isn't. I did notice it's not a perfect tight fit on the inner though so can see how leakage would occur there and it's right at where I can look down and see that flicker from the outside. Because that inner isn't perfectly sealed I also question if we're getting any gases out into the house when we burn. The monoxide detector hasn't gone off but...I still wonder.

 

[baerjo]

I don't know this stove either, but air leaking into the flue there is not going to help the fire. In fact it'll decrease the draft in the stove because part of the chimneys suction is now used not to suck air thru the stove but to suck air in thru that leak.

Indeed it should not be leaking much there. Air tight sealing is not needed but you should not be seeing flames there.

Short burn times, however, suggest (also) a leak into the firebox.

Are your gaskets passing the dollar bill test? Is the window not movable in the door frame? (Two flat hands on two sides of the window when cold. Be sure not to lift the door off its hinges if possible.) Oa the ash drawer closed properly (dollar bill test)?

How tall is your chimney? Too high draft due to a tall chimney could be a cause. Do you have a key damper?

I did not test with a dollar bill but with a lighter flame while the stove had a good fire going. That's how I found that oval to round adapter leak. As far as the ash pan gasket, I actually open it a crack at first start from coals as it helps that initial start process. When I close it there's a huge difference and the flame slows way down. I'll do a closer inspection of it just to be sure as well as do the dollar bill test on it and the doors. The glass is very secure, I've checked that one already.
The flame being visible I wonder if it's because of the crimping on the inner wall of that adapter? If there are crimps it would make sense there'd be not a perfect seal and possible some visibility at the crimp points. It's not like I'm seeing the entire fire, just a flicker through that spot.
While I was head deep in it I did check the catalyst to make sure it was actually installed, and correctly, it was. I wonder if I should run it without using catalyst and see if the heat/flames are more controllable? I'm wondering if since the catalyst is burning smoke etc... it's perhaps just adding that much more heat to the equation? Is that possible? It gets to about 750F on my stop top thermometer and stops. If it is the catalyst driving the temp up that high I'd wonder if it's even worth engaging it if that causes the wood to burn down faster? Although it's not burning the wood, just causing heat, so I dont know if that has anything to do with it even. Now I'm just rambling sorry.

As for chimney height, it is within parameters but I couldn't tell ya exact height. It goes from basement past main level and upstairs. Do not have a key damper.

 

[baerjo]

I don't know this stove either, but air leaking into the flue there is not going to help the fire. In fact it'll decrease the draft in the stove because part of the chimneys suction is now used not to suck air thru the stove but to suck air in thru that leak.

Indeed it should not be leaking much there. Air tight sealing is not needed but you should not be seeing flames there.

Short burn times, however, suggest (also) a leak into the firebox.

Are your gaskets passing the dollar bill test? Is the window not movable in the door frame? (Two flat hands on two sides of the window when cold. Be sure not to lift the door off its hinges if possible.) Oa the ash drawer closed properly (dollar bill test)?

How tall is your chimney? Too high draft due to a tall chimney could be a cause. Do you have a key damper?

Did the dollar bill test and wow....everything is failing except for the left front door. Right front door, ashpan, top load door, everything fails. This is a brand new stove, wtf Vermont Castings?!?!?! Suffice to say contacted the dealer again, going to be interesting to see what they say. Funny part is it came with a Vermont Castings air tightness certification which obviously it's not.

 

[stoveliker]

Ok.
To clarify, the oval issue is separate from the controllability and short burn time issue. Regarding the latter, you may have found the cause.

The cat won't cause a stove that's too hot. Often The added impedance for the gas flow slows things down.

Let's see what the dealer says regarding both things.

Finally, if the stove is in the basement and the chimney goes through the basements, first floor and secondary floor, you may wel need a key damper as it likely has a very high draft.

 

[Kevin Weis]

Before you go with the key damper thing may be good to check draft with a manometer to see what you actually have for a draft. The VC's have draft parameters in the installation manual or at least they did. A good draft for that stove is probably around .06 in water weight. It sounds like you have probably near 30' feet there so yeah, you may need a damper in the stove pipe but see what you actually have first.

 

[baerjo]

So the dealer is coming out Thursday to check things over. Had been burning some oak, hackberry, harder stuff the last 24hrs. Draft up the chimney “should” have prevented this problem but…woke up early today to my CO detectors blaring. Suffice to say I’m not relighting this thing till the appointment Thursday. This thing has been a ridiculous waste of money so far. Will post update after Thursday.