Dell-Point Europa Failure

[Irishman]

I attempted to start the stove with one failure. I don't think I put enough starter pellets on top and the fire was out in two minutes. Instead of letting the stove go through the cooling process, I unplugged the stove and the battery for 30 seconds. When I turned the stove back on, I got the E5 error code. I put the proper amount of starter pellets on top and re-lit the stove. The ash auger fix looked to have worked very well, as I could see nice blue dart like flames coming out of the holes in the top of the burn pot. I heard the tell tale sound that the stove had completed its A2 start up process and I went to the side of the stove to turn the heat level as well as the ash extraction down. To my surprise, the board was dead. The comb fan was still running but the ash auger motor and the pellet feed auger motor were no longer functioning. I wanted to shut the stove down, but there was no way to do so. I started to freak out a bit because I was worried about the stove overheating since the room air fan was not extracting the heat. All I could do was wait for the remaining ash bed to burn down and extinguish. While waiting for the embers to extinguish themselves for 15 minutes or so, I heard the ash extraction motor come on. I went around the stove to see that the board was back on again and again the E5 error was showing. I immediately pressed the cool down button and that process continues.

Does anybody know what would cause the board to go completely blank and allow the comb air fan to continue to run? Do I have to wait for the E5 error code to clear before restarting the stove and if so, is there something I need to do to clear that code? If this sequence of events were to occur again in the future, what would be the recommended way to handle it? I was tempted to carefully open the door and hit it with a fire ext., but I was worried about blowing embers out of the burn pot.

I attempted to start the stove again, a day later with the exact same results. I wonder if there is a way to reset the board. I have a call in to Dell Point that hasn't been returned.

Thanks in advance for any answers.

Irishman

 

[EmaZ]

I have had repeated problems with the Dell Point Europa. I live in northern Indiana and have spent two and a half years now trying to get this stove to work. This stove has numerous technical and structural problems. The "instruction manual" is confusing and the technical support by phone is either evasive or downright rude. I can't afford a $5000 loss and that's what this stove represents for me, when you count the installation. That doesn't even include hours and hours of time wasted trying to call FPI (Fireplace Products International) or attempting to fix the stove myself.

 

[stoveguy2esw]

i really dont know much about them , though i have heard that they are over the top as far as being complecated in the way they work, does your owners manual have a wiring schematic? and a basic "what does what" description , if so and you can get me a link to the manual i'll look at it and see if i can figure it out. may take a few communications but i'll try if youre game. this is what i do as a job at ESW, but i "play" in here doing similar things.

 

[SmokeyTheBear]

Is the E5 the only situation that you are interested in? I know a guy that ran one for two years straight and then sold it. He will be here Monday morning and I might be able to ask him some questions. He is a stove repair person who does warranty work on many stove brands and has access to tons of information.

 

[EmaZ]

Hello Stove Guy 2, Pyro Extraordinaire! Are you serious? Do you mean you are willing to help me (free)? I have both the original Dell Point Europa 75 manual from my original stove...and the most recent manual. Are you saying that it is ok for me to email you at your email address? I certainly could photocopy you this owner's manual and send it to you. The manual is pathetic, it is shorter than a comic book, the photos are grainy and much essential information is absent. Yes, it does give an electrical scheme but it does not tell the owner how to replace fuses and other important details.

For one thing, they should include a page diagramming which fuse corresponds to the ash extraction and which corresponds to the augur motor, etc., since failure of these systems is chronic in the stove.

Maybe I am not supposed to be replacing fuses because I am not "a licensed technician." That point was not made clear either. When I called the FPI office in DeKalb, Il., the supposed technician told me how to replace the fuses and mailed me some. I replaced them, and then everything was fine for one week. But then, when the stove cut off again with E5 readings (power interruption), the same FPI person told me that "only certified technicians" should work on the stove. Another representative on FPI's toll free number told me that "touching a control panel with your fingers will destroy it." If the control panel is that delicate, why was I instructed to replace the fuses? This company asks the owner to fend for himself, then avoids responsibility when the product fails...by saying that the defect is due to the owner's "tampering."

If it's okay with you Stove Guy 2, I'll send you an email. Over 3 years I have worked on the stove a lot. When it works, it is great. I really would like to get it to function and I sincerely appreciate your assistance. Your willingness to help is really different than dealing with the company, FPI, who sold me this product for almost $4,000 (count 'em and weep!). What a racket!

 

[EmaZ]

Hello Smokey the Bear! That is so kind of you to be willing to answer some questions. Or to ask your fellow technician. Today it was 20 below in Indiana and I was crying the blues, I must admit, due to this stove. If your colleague has the time, here is a question:

How often are the "error codes" wrong, on the control panel of the Europa? Trouble shooting is impossible when the technology of the stove does not correctly identify its own problem.

For example, my Dell Point Europa recently cut off repeatedly with an E5 (power interruption) reading. Black smoke billowed out of the blowers and stunk up my entire house as the stove cooled down. I have had a Dell Point Europa for 3 years now and I have had a myriad of problems...but this stinky smoke phenomenon is new. (I had so many problems with the first one that FPI replaced it last year, with a stove that hasn't worked 3 straight weeks yet this winter)

When I tried to contact FPI, I got contradictory information: a technician in Canada said to clean the flywheel and verify the power connection. A technician in California said that even if no other appliance in the house senses it, the slightest power interruption can shut down this stove completely. He also said that my exhaust pipe to the wall should have been installed at an angle, even though the owner's manual diagram clearly shows it as parallel to the floor. (He said this would have prevented the smoke.) The dealer who sold me the stove told me to make sure no wires were loose in the control panel and gave me instructions on charging the battery.

None of these suggestions helped. I cleaned the convection flywheel with spray air and took the battery to a local lawnmower store. The salesman there told me, as I should have known, that there should be no need to charge a battery on a device like this stove that should be self-charging, because it is plugged into a power outlet.

Today two guys came from the dealer who sold me the stove. (It has been hard to get them to come out here, because they keep saying they don't sell the stove any more and therefore don't understand some of the latest developments.) Anyway, they trouble shot and told me that the problem was the maintenance of the ash extraction system. They told me to clean this system regularly.

If that was the problem, I don't understand why none of the technicians or specialists had mentioned this before. The stove seems prone to failure due to so many causes that it is very hard to trouble shoot. Also, this is a new unit and it is a mystery to me that the ash extraction augurs could have become so severely clogged without even 3 weeks of use.

When something goes wrong with the Dell Point Europa, the readings on the control panel don't help me to determine the cause of the problem. And the representatives of FPI are not much help either. I got lucky today, with this visit from two guys from the dealer. I'm glad the stove is functioning tonight but I honestly don't have much hope it will stay lit, based on past experience.

Thanks a lot for listening and have a great weekend.

 

[SmokeyTheBear]

If there is no battery connected, a power interruption in excess of 5 seconds, will cause the stove to go into shutdown mode once power is restored an error code of E5 or E6 will be in Display B. A power interruption of less than 5 seconds will result in the stove picking up where it left off upon restoration of power.

Sounds like your battery isn't connected as far as the stove is concerned and the 120 volt power got pulled or glitched.

Now as for the battery being connected, you must make certain that the connections are both correct + to + and - to - and securely fastened to the battery posts.

Your stove should then trickle charge the battery as long as there is 120 volt power and the battery is still able to be recharged.

You should be able to verify if the charger portion of the stove is functioning by checking the voltage using a multimeter across the battery connections with the battery disconnected and the stove plugged in. You should get a voltage of approximately 12 volts.

If the battery becomes discharged past a certain point then it will appear not to be connected.

If your battery was completely discharged it may take quite some time to trickle charge it to operating condition. In addition some batteries have a relatively short lifetime when operated in this manner. Several UPS manufacturers recommend periodic replacement of their batteries even if power never goes off.

 

[stoveguy2esw]

Hello Stove Guy 2, Pyro Extraordinaire! Are you serious? Do you mean you are willing to help me (free)? I have both the original Dell Point Europa 75 manual from my original stove...and the most recent manual. Are you saying that it is ok for me to email you at your email address? I certainly could photocopy you this owner's manual and send it to you. The manual is pathetic, it is shorter than a comic book, the photos are grainy and much essential information is absent. Yes, it does give an electrical scheme but it does not tell the owner how to replace fuses and other important details.

For one thing, they should include a page diagramming which fuse corresponds to the ash extraction and which corresponds to the augur motor, etc., since failure of these systems is chronic in the stove.

Maybe I am not supposed to be replacing fuses because I am not "a licensed technician." That point was not made clear either. When I called the FPI office in DeKalb, Il., the supposed technician told me how to replace the fuses and mailed me some. I replaced them, and then everything was fine for one week. But then, when the stove cut off again with E5 readings (power interruption), the same FPI person told me that "only certified technicians" should work on the stove. Another representative on FPI's toll free number told me that "touching a control panel with your fingers will destroy it." If the control panel is that delicate, why was I instructed to replace the fuses? This company asks the owner to fend for himself, then avoids responsibility when the product fails...by saying that the defect is due to the owner's "tampering."

If it's okay with you Stove Guy 2, I'll send you an email. Over 3 years I have worked on the stove a lot. When it works, it is great. I really would like to get it to function and I sincerely appreciate your assistance. Your willingness to help is really different than dealing with the company, FPI, who sold me this product for almost $4,000 (count 'em and weep!). What a racket!

yes you certainly may e mail me , please use the yahoo address as i do not work on "non-ESW" units at work for obvious reasons. if you can shoot me a copy of the manual , i'll try (no guarintees) to decypher how the critter works and maybe i can pick out what to look at. bear in mind ive never seen this model stove before but ive built pellet stoves for over 15 years. i'd be happy to take a look, and of course for free i do this for fun in here.

and by all means (especially smoky) lets keep the thread moving and see if we can figure this out, someone like smoky who knows the stove may be (and probably is) even better than what i might provide.

 

[SmokeyTheBear]

Actually CZARCAR the stove is being handled by a new owner and is still multi fuel. I guess the new folks haven't figured it out yet and the old dealer network is gone (well not really just not handling the stove any more).

Mr. Holton the stove's manual can be obtained online at (broken link removed)

It is an unique stove. I've seen one run and would have bought it if one of the local dealers was available for warranty work, they weren't so I didn't.

The stove has completely independent control over just about every parameter for controlling a burn and works with quite an array of solid fuels.

 

[EmaZ]

Hi SmokeyTheBear,

Thanks. I know I need to get a multimeter and learn to use it because the issue of the electrical connection has come up before.
I don't think that I mentioned that after I got an E5 reading when my stove shut off recently, on a subsequent attempt to light it, I got an E3 reading, "low voltage." I did the maintenance of the battery system test (manual page 22) and when I pulled the plug after 30 seconds, the stove shut off. That's when I took the battery to the lawnmower store, because the owner there said he'd charge it for me.
There was some disagreement about what kind of battery charges this stove. The dealer told me to get a "wet cell" but the lawnmower store guy looked at it and said it is a sealed lead acid battery.
As it turned out, I bought a Black and Decker battery charger and charged the battery myself, but the store also ordered me another battery that I'll keep as a spare. That battery will cost $64. The store guy was surprised that this kind of battery would totally lose its charge...so I am still trying to figure out what went wrong. This stove is new and had only been in use 2 and 1/2 weeks total. What could have caused a new battery to completely trickle out? If the battery had "a short lifetime," as you mentioned, well that sure is a short lifetime for a $64 battery! Or...maybe when they supposedly replaced the stove last March, they just kept the old battery. I didn't check.
Right now, I need some assistance mastering the "maintenance of the ash extraction system." (manual page 21). I know how to take off the back panel, remove the augur motor and vacuum (or clear) out the sawdust. That was a chronic problem last year, the jammed augur. So I know how to do that...but I haven't removed the ash extraction system in the bottom of the stove below the burn pot. It turned out that this was the problem that somehow caused an E5 and then an E3 reading. It is really hard for me to understand how those readings relate to the jammed lower augurs.
Thanks again for your comments

 

[EmaZ]

Hello Mike/Pyro and thanks for your comments.
I can scan the Dell Point Europa 75 manual at work (it's only 27 pages long) and send it to you in an email attachment. That way you can take a look at it when you get the chance.
It seems very likely to me that an overall familiarity with pellet/wood stoves would be helpful in trouble shooting with this unit. When the two guys from the dealer were working with it yesterday, they told me afterwards that it would help if I did more maintenance on the vent to the outside air (the black pipe that goes from the stove to the wall). I know that to you, this sounds very obvious. But I didn't know I could remove the outer silver metal cover of the chimney (or outlet) outside my house. The guy from the dealer told me to pry this off periodically and use a long brush to scrape out any buildup. Again, this sounds so obvious...that a clogged chimney would jam up the stove. I don't mind doing maintenance and cleaning. My complaint is that a reading of "power interruption" or "low voltage" doesn't help me identify the problem. Neither do the FPI "technicians," one of whom asked me why I felt it was necessary to clean the stove. His advice seemed almost misleading, completely out in left field.
I am guessing that a jam-up can somehow also de-activate the power supply of the stove?? and trickle out the battery too? I am trying to determine a sequence of steps that I can follow when problems come up again.
I also understand that the maintenance of the ash extraction system is really important but I don't have expertise in this. The manual has two photos and includes directions such as: "the "lovejoy" connection will now be loose." Okay, I really don't know what is a "lovejoy" connection. Probably someone who knows a lot about pellet stoves or mechanics in general would know this.
Thanks and I'll try to send you the manual soon.

 

[EmaZ]

Another thought Mike (Pyro Extraordinaire),
I think I may have noticed...when I just submitted my previous post, that this site allows for attachments. I could also try to send you a scan of the manual as an attachment. I don't know if that would be violating some kind of copyright law...but as the FPI has pretty much ignored its obligation to "serve the customer," I don't think I have much obligation to them at this point. And the owner's manual is so sadly lacking...as to be laughable. I got better instructions for my Colgate tooth whitener.

 

[SmokeyTheBear]

Well EmmaZ I'm not to the point where I'd be tying all of your problems down to any particular sequence yet.

Both the E3 and E5 error codes relate to the stove having power.

You should not see the E3 if the battery is up to charge and the stove is plugged in. It is not a requirement for there to be a battery to operate that stove.

So I'm going to ask you about the 120 volt path first and I 'm not certain that I want you touching anything just looking. Is it possible that the wiring is loose first going to the battery, then going from the wall to the control system? Loose wiring can cause all kinds of issues. If the connections are screw type then simple changes in temperatures can cause problems. Like possibly breaking the 120 connection that would make the stove go to battery back up. Then the battery would die some time latter and then the stove would show E5 and E3. Likewise a loose connection to the battery would lead to improper charging leading to a E3.

The only connection I can see to the auger jam causing a power problem would be if the stove was running on battery and the fuse didn't fry early enough causing the battery to be drained.

When the stove was first installed the dealer should have walked you through all of the normal requirements to allow the safe operation of your stove. I can't account for your dealer. I'm curious by nature and like to know what I'm dealing with so I'll chase down what things mean. RE: lovejoy connection , a quick search on Google turns up some interesting things.

 

[SmokeyTheBear]

There are other gasification units available, however they aren't anywhere near as compact as the Europa and I haven't seen any that are billed as pellet stoves. Then again I haven't really gone looking for such.

I have no trouble with multi fuel stoves.

In fact I kind of wish I had the old solid fuel hot air furnace I once burned. I could toss wood or coal in it , it always worked and never used any electricity. Talk about heat. Oh well those things weren't portable and it wasn't exactly efficient, etc....

 

[EmaZ]

Thanks very much SmokeyTheBear for the link to the Dell Point Europa manual online. I knew about this (I had seen it) but it had slipped my mind.
I guess Pyro Extraordinaire you can reference any questions, then, using the online manual. I have criticized the manual, but maybe their instructions are understandable to those of you who already know about wood stoves, electronics and just machines in general.
In retrospect, I am thinking that my dealer didn't emphasize clearly enough the importance of cleaning specific areas of the stove, such as the exhaust tube (vent/chimney) going outside and the ash extraction system. They had many opportunities to provide instructions, I was pretty much a willing audience every time they came to my house and whenever I called for help. But because of simple lack of information, I did not scrub out the ash extraction system regularly.
I know the manual says to clean the stove. But as I said earlier, the FPI specialists didn't give clear guidance. I recently talked to an FPI technician in California, who claimed that he owned a Dell Point Europa 75...and he asked me with disbelief why I felt it was necessary to clean my stove at all. (He was at one of the FPI toll free numbers listed on their website.) He also said that the Dell Point Europa was only designed to run about 2 hours a day and asked me why I was running mine for a week at a time. He asked me with surprise if I was using the stove to try to heat my house. That conversation was very confusing. He seemed to imply that you could just switch the stove on and off at intervals, like a lamp or something.
On this website, it is obvious that many people use the Dell Point Europa to heat their homes and that they run the stove for a week straight or even longer.

 

[Fsappo]

I used a Dell Point that was purchased back when Regency was making them and had a ton of problems. Fans melting, error messages, etc. My buddy bought one late last year from Paromax, which is the original inventor of the stove. He used his all season. Never shut it down more than once a month. It runs on a thermostat and is very quiet. He showed me a new brochure saying the stoves tested at 94.9% efficienct. Thats huge. The stove was $4900 but I may scrap my old one and buy a new one. He has the same house as his neighbor that uses a American Energy stove. The neighbor uses 6 tons per year, my buddy used 3.5 tons last year.

Low maintanence, easy to use. I hear a lot of folks that bought these thru Fireplace Products (regency) had issues, but apparently the new generation back in the hands of the guy who invented the stove is bullet proof. His is also much quiter than mine. Just my two cents

 

[Fsappo]

It is a true multi fuel. It has a corn pot and a pellet pot. Easy to switch in and out and burns corn great with a very blue flame. We now have one of the newer generation in our showroom and people are loving it