Efficient zero clearance fireplace

[tuolumne]

We are planning a new home in Vermont and the central heating system will be a wood boiler. However, we currently heat our home with a wood stove and felt we would greatly miss sitting around the fire as a family. From an aesthetics standpoint, we would rather look at a fireplace. Currently, the plans are to have a central chimney that serves the wood boiler in the basement, a wood stove in the master bedroom, and whaterver ends up in the living area. Are there efficient fireplace (inserts?) available that could be used here? I envision building a framed box against the masonry chimney and facing it with cultured stone to house such a fireplace. I recently saw some literature for fireplace xtrordinair, which looks like it would work...but...I have no idea how much they cost, and I'm turned off by the fact that it needs electricity to work.

1.) Who makes this type of fireplace that does not require a blower to operate (I anticipate using when power is out)

2.) What do the above units typically cost. I can figure the framing, stone vener, mantel etc.

3.) Would it be cheaper to build a traditional masonry fireplace with a good set of glass doors? I am already paying for a 35 foot high brick chimney; the extra masonry would be required for the fireplace and down to the basement. Efficiency would be very important here, we would want this to act as a backup heat source if the power is out. Also, I would not want to suck heat out of the house just to look at flames in the living room.

4.) If we stick with the stove, we would use something like our current Hearthstone Mansfield, which has climbed to around $2500, so that's the baseline.

 

[babalu87]

I would think a wood stove with BIG GLASS DOORS would be the best of both worlds.
If it is truly for a secondary heat source the bottom line is an insert doesnt do the job of a wood stove, may I suggest the Morso 3610? It has BIG GLASS on the doors allowing for a great view of the fire and it will easily heat a 2000+ sq foot home.

If you feel you will miss the wood stove, I would put on in.
Good luck with the house.

 

[MountainStoveGuy]

the quadrafire 7100, the heatilator constitution, the heat -n- glo northstar are all similar fireplaces that are efficient, and do not need the blower to put out a ton of heat. They come with a blower, and i would use the blower (on the lowest setting), but there is plenty of radient heat out of a fireplace like that. I would suspect the same is true for the fireplace extrodinare. Expect to pay $3500- $4000 for a epa fireplace.

 

[velvetfoot]

I looked at those big fireplaces a while ago. If I recall one of them used "fake" firebrick. I can't remember which one. If I had my druthers, I would want one with replaceable firebrick.

 

[scfa99]

I've been running the 7100 for 2 years and based on what you've said it meets all your requirements. Do a search on 7100 and you'll pull up alot of my posts and pictures. if you have any specific questions let me know.

 

[tuolumne]

Thanks for all replies thus far. I like the appearance of the 7100 very much. This looks like it would do exactly as I envisioned, allowing me to tie right into the appliance chimney already planned. Is there any problem offseting the flue within the cavity? I could not find any detailed installation information. Is there danger of overheating such a unit if the blower could not operate?

 

[MountainStoveGuy]

Thanks for all replies thus far. I like the appearance of the 7100 very much. This looks like it would do exactly as I envisioned, allowing me to tie right into the appliance chimney already planned. Is there any problem offseting the flue within the cavity? I could not find any detailed installation information. Is there danger of overheating such a unit if the blower could not operate?

the blower has to be hooked up, there is a saftey switch that will acivate the blower if it over heats.
there are standard 30*'s and 15*'s elbows for the chimney

 

[tuolumne]

So what happens when the power is out? We will be fairly remote, and it's not too hard to imagine the power being out on a regular basis. There will be two other wood stoves in the house, so we won't freeze, but will we burn the house down with an unpowered zero clearance fireplace?

 

[scfa99]

doubtful, i keep my fan off at times and have a temp gauge on the faceplate, when it hits 550-600 i will throw on the fan. in order to get it up that hot you have to be burning for 1/2 a day, have a huge bed of coals and pack the box and keep the damper wide open. i think you'd be fine as long as you learn to control the damper and limit the amount of wood you put in when the power is out.

 

[jtp10181]

So what happens when the power is out? We will be fairly remote, and it's not too hard to imagine the power being out on a regular basis. There will be two other wood stoves in the house, so we won't freeze, but will we burn the house down with an unpowered zero clearance fireplace?

Actually... with the switched hooked up like it says in the directions, if you have the over ride and the rheostat in the off position the blower will never come on. There is no "safty switch" for the blowers that will kick them on if the unit overheats. All HHT wood and gas units that I know of are ok to use with no blower. The 7100 and Northstar do have a temp disc in them to automatically turn the blower on and off IF you have the rheostat turned on. The second switch is an override if you want the blower on before the disc trips.

 

[DiscoInferno]

I think the blower is just an option for a lot of the ZC fireplaces. I know it was on mine. The metal facing/surround gets a lot hotter without the fan running, and less air blows through, but it still gets a good passive convection going. I'd be more concerned about an overhanging wood mantel without the blower, though, because the air goes more up and less out.

 

[tuolumne]

This sounds great. Thanks for all the replies. We'll be looking into the details. Does anyone have any construction "oops" that were learned the hard way? I would plan to build a 2x4 frame floor to ceiling, and face it with cultured stone. The flue would need to jog over about 16" to the thimble, all within the cavity.

Unrelated, but same home. There will be a wood stove in the entry with a pipe running straight up through the stair opening and out the roof. About 14' will be exposed. Side clearances are not an issue. Are there products available that can do this with one piece? What do I need at the ceiling penetration and then at the roof? There is only about 24" of space between these two. Are there pipes available with enamel (shiny) type finishes as aposed to the typical dull black stovepipe? Our current stove pipe is single wall, which is nice for conducting extra heat to the room, but it's a bit blotchy after 4 years. The basement pipe is galvanized, and it has totally changed color after some pretty hot fires. That steel plate stove runs hot, burns quick and gets cold fast.

 

[scfa99]

make sure you do the p-trap for the outside air going into the quad. do a search on my posts i listed what it is and why's it needed. it makes a difference, trust me. last thing you want is cold air coming in via your 4k investment.

 

[jtp10181]

Yeah on the Quad unit make sure the fresh air has a P-Trap like he said. Also make sure you install the CAK (Chimney Air Kit) correctly. If you are using the AUX air at all make sure you read the directions. Do NOT connect the "AUX" air port to the outside because it has no damper and it will just dump cold air into the house non stop. Also make sure to read the directions for the electrical wiring. This is the most commonly messed up item on this unit. You need a line feed coming into a 2-gang box and then from there a 14/3 going to the fireplace. This setup lets you have a speed control knob and an over ride switch to bypass the temp disc. If you are penetrating an attic make sure you use an "AS8" which is an attic insulation shield. Unless you want to start your attic on fire, then skip that part.

Mind telling me what kind of facing will be put on the 7100? I have some pointers for that as well.

For the stove, what we do here is run Class A double wall (air insulated I think) stainless steel chimney from the ceiling up out the roof. We us a ceiling support box to hold the weight of the pipe and transition to the stove pipe. If its going into attic space you will want another attic insulation shield. At the roof you should only need a pitched roof flashing and a storm collar. For the exposed pipe outside you can use locking bands to keep the pipe solid. Inside the room 95% of the time we use double wall pipe with DVL adaptor to transition to the support box. For the black pipe you can buy stove pipe paint from just about any stove shop. We use RUTLAND #80 flat black 1200 degree paint and it works pretty good for touchups or to repaint the entire pipe.

 

[Gooserider]

This sounds great. Thanks for all the replies. We'll be looking into the details. Does anyone have any construction "oops" that were learned the hard way? I would plan to build a 2x4 frame floor to ceiling, and face it with cultured stone. The flue would need to jog over about 16" to the thimble, all within the cavity.

Unrelated, but same home. There will be a wood stove in the entry with a pipe running straight up through the stair opening and out the roof. About 14' will be exposed. Side clearances are not an issue. Are there products available that can do this with one piece? What do I need at the ceiling penetration and then at the roof? There is only about 24" of space between these two. Are there pipes available with enamel (shiny) type finishes as aposed to the typical dull black stovepipe? Our current stove pipe is single wall, which is nice for conducting extra heat to the room, but it's a bit blotchy after 4 years. The basement pipe is galvanized, and it has totally changed color after some pretty hot fires. That steel plate stove runs hot, burns quick and gets cold fast.

Am I reading this correctly, and you are using galvanized pipe on a wood stove??? If so, this is a VERY BAD IDEA Galvanized is not intended for the temperatures that a wood stove puts out, and may not hold up well under those temperatures. Worse, it can put out :sick: TOXIC FUMES :sick: when it gets hot due to the zinc coating (what makes galvanized) evaporating! Any welder can tell you that zinc fumes are NASTY items that can cause serious long term health damage :sick: with very little exposure....

If this is the case, then you need to fix this ASAP, before using that stove again!

Gooserider

 

[tuolumne]

jtb - Thanks for all the great information.

Mind telling me what kind of facing will be put on the 7100? I have some pointers for that as well.

My thought was to use cultured stone on mesh. Any input would be appreciated. Of course, the goal is to make something that looks as nice as the brochures. I would like a ring around the fireplace with a keystone. Something like this...

 

[jqgs214]

One other note it seems others have missed. You mentioned a wood stove in the bedroom! If I recall that wont meet code. Elk can you chime in on this?

 

[scfa99]

jtb - Thanks for all the great information.

Mind telling me what kind of facing will be put on the 7100? I have some pointers for that as well.

My thought was to use cultured stone on mesh. Any input would be appreciated. Of course, the goal is to make something that looks as nice as the brochures. I would like a ring around the fireplace with a keystone. Something like this...

this thread might help you.

https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/1992/

 

[jtp10181]

jtb - Thanks for all the great information.

Mind telling me what kind of facing will be put on the 7100? I have some pointers for that as well.

My thought was to use cultured stone on mesh. Any input would be appreciated. Of course, the goal is to make something that looks as nice as the brochures. I would like a ring around the fireplace with a keystone. Something like this...

If you are doing anything thicker than ceramic tile I would highly suggest getting the stone template for the unit. Part number is TMP-443 or 433 (can't remember which but only one of those is a valid part). What you do is get some hex bolts the right size, #10 coarse thread I think but not positive, and mount this steel template to the unit after its installed. Then you stone up to the template, usually best to leave about an 1/8" around it to make it easy to get the front on and off. Make sure not jagged stones protrude out over the template. When the house is done you take the template off and put on your front which is still shiny and new (not having motor all over it). The most common facings mistake with this unit is that masons brick or stone right over the front. Then when we need to service the timer assembly or ACC linkage the stone has to come off so we can remove the front.

 

[tuolumne]

One other note it seems others have missed. You mentioned a wood stove in the bedroom! If I recall that wont meet code. Elk can you chime in on this?

Why? I don't have any codes to worry about, but I have my families safety in mind. Is it the thought that smoke could leak undetected while you're sleeping? Thats what Smoke and CO detectors are for right? Many homes I'm aware of that were built recently have either a wood stove or fireplace in the bedroom. Anyway, the combined bedroom, bath and hobby area are an open floor plan of nearly 400 square feet, so it won't overheat with a small stove.

 

[begreen]

If you live in CT then there are code regulations regarding solid fuel appliances in the bedroom.

But is the stove in the acutal room or in the hobby area? Does the stove and installation comply with code? Is your insurance co ok with the installation?

 

[tuolumne]

This will be a new home in Vermont. We are well aware of the codes here in CT! Technically, the installation could be called the hobby area...it's all one room...whirlpool bath, desk, reading nook, woodstove...the bed is tucked away in a remote corner. There is no building code at all where I'm building, just a need for a health permit on the septic system. Therefore, I'm more interested in the principle behind the code so I can evaluate this relative to my families comfort or safety. This doesn't mean I'm building a home out of straw. I will follow all the typical egress, electrical, plumbing, fire codes etc. as if I were in a town requireing this...but, if there is a concept I find bizarre like AFCI outlets in bedrooms you can be sure I'll just skip it.

 

[begreen]

This has been discussed in depth in other threads. They should be able to address your concerns. I don't want to hijack this one, so here are some links:

https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/4465/
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/3171/
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/215/

 

[tuolumne]

Thanks, it sounds like this is an environmental issue, not a fire hazard. I would be intalling a fresh air kit anyway. We never close the bedroom door at night now or we would freeze, and it's nice to here the youngsters if they have needs. A fire is an important part of the mood in this room. You pay big dollars for that sort of thing at nice bed and breakfasts!

Thanks for all previous posts regarding the ZC fireplace. We really look forward to this as a nice part of our home. The engineer in me just can't justify the open hearth.

 

[Gooserider]

This will be a new home in Vermont. We are well aware of the codes here in CT! Technically, the installation could be called the hobby area...it's all one room...whirlpool bath, desk, reading nook, woodstove...the bed is tucked away in a remote corner. There is no building code at all where I'm building, just a need for a health permit on the septic system. Therefore, I'm more interested in the principle behind the code so I can evaluate this relative to my families comfort or safety. This doesn't mean I'm building a home out of straw. I will follow all the typical egress, electrical, plumbing, fire codes etc. as if I were in a town requireing this...but, if there is a concept I find bizarre like AFCI outlets in bedrooms you can be sure I'll just skip it.

If you don't have codes, you may be able to skip, but I like to tell people to keep in mind something a friend of mine once said - he described the National Electrical Code as "The book of the Dead" because every line in it was put there because someone died who took a shortcut and did it some other way...

My personal rule is to treat the code as a MINIMUM standard.

I put a great deal of faith in that great legal scholar Murphy, who got an entire body of law named after him, which means that I DON'T put much faith in alarms and safety devices (indeed I'm known to advocate disabling or bypassing them on some devices)

I think those threads that BG mentioned earlier went into the reasoning behind the bedroom prohibition, and possibly pointed to a way to deal with it, but I'd consider the points raised in those threads carefully.

Gooserider