If your house is plumbed in copper, and has a ground from the panel clamped to one of the cold water pipes , what do you do with that ground if you swap the copper for pex? Asking for a friend...
Electric/Plumbing Question
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Bad LP
Minister of Fire
Traditional ground rod. Actually 2 of them is better. Mine is 2/0 copper cable with a bronze clamp. When the new masonry stairs go in I’m adding #2 where it will see better moisture.
My other ground (that will be #3) is located at the stand by generator.
My assumption is that the ground on the water line is no longer required as the water line in no longer conductive.
FWIW my house was built in 2015, it was built with PEX water lines, I have 3 connections coming off my single ground rod; to the panel, to the steel natural gas line, and a wire to the internet/cable box where it enters the house coming from the street.
FWIW my house was built in 2015, it was built with PEX water lines, I have 3 connections coming off my single ground rod; to the panel, to the steel natural gas line, and a wire to the internet/cable box where it enters the house coming from the street.
Yes, there is also a second ground wire coming out of the panel to a traditional ground rod in the ground outside. So it should be safe to just remove the whole wire & clamp that currently runs to the plumbing pipe? Another possible thing is that not all the copper pipe would be replaced or replaced right away. But the section where the clamp is would be. I know just enough about electricity to be a danger to myself.
I'm not an electrician either, but my understanding is conductive water pipes are grounded for 3 reasons:
1. The water line has/is being used as the service ground for the house
2. To avoid a voltage energizing the water piping from a source exterior to the house (lightning)
3. To dissipate the voltage should the piping become energized within the home.
If you are replacing the copper pipe at the entrance to your house items 1 and 2 should no longer apply, the way I see it number 3 may still be an issue if the rest of the copper piping could somehow become energized.
If this were me I'd be giving the city electrical inspector a call, our inspectors are good about answering questions like this, because quite frankly it's up to them to decide how to interpret the code and whether to pass an inspection.
1. The water line has/is being used as the service ground for the house
2. To avoid a voltage energizing the water piping from a source exterior to the house (lightning)
3. To dissipate the voltage should the piping become energized within the home.
If you are replacing the copper pipe at the entrance to your house items 1 and 2 should no longer apply, the way I see it number 3 may still be an issue if the rest of the copper piping could somehow become energized.
If this were me I'd be giving the city electrical inspector a call, our inspectors are good about answering questions like this, because quite frankly it's up to them to decide how to interpret the code and whether to pass an inspection.
Look for other things connected/clamped to the pipe, like a doorbell transformer. They were notorious for electrical noise making phone conversations and DSL connections near impossible. If there are/were other devices grounded to the pipe(s) then that wire may need to be extended to connect them, replacing the copper pipe.
If the majority of the house will still be copper piped then it would still be beneficial to reconnect the ground where the copper piping starts. This would provide grounding for potential shorts or leaks in contact with the plumbing, for example at the hot water heater.
Curious, why the switching over to PEX instead of remaining all copper?
Curious, why the switching over to PEX instead of remaining all copper?
The rule isn't that your electric system needs to be bonded to the water pipe, it's that the metallic water pipe needs to be bonded to the electrical grounding system. If the metal pipe disappears, so does the grounding requirement.
However, if you have any remaining copper pipes hooked in to the PEX, you need to ground those.
Highbeam
Minister of Fire
But that’s not a good enough answer either because very often the plumbers like to clamp on the little stubs of copper at the end where it pokes through the wall for the toilet valve. Or there is an existing hose bib buried in a wall that you can’t access so you leave a foot or two of copper.
There is almost always going to something conductive(metal) somewhere if even just the actual fixture but you’re not going to run a bunch of heavy copper ground wires to every one of them. What a mess.
When I upgraded to pex from copper I disconnected the plumbing ground. My waste pipes are copper so I kept that ground attached.
I don't know about Canada but in the US if it is a piping "system" it needs to be bonded. I don't think individual stub outs count as a system. If there is no electrical nearby then your inspector will have a hard time arguing that it could be a hazard.
On the other hand if there is electricity present, around pool/spa/hottub/water heater and the like, where the pipe or fittings are "likely to become energized," they are treated like any other metallic object and must be bonded.
On the other hand if there is electricity present, around pool/spa/hottub/water heater and the like, where the pipe or fittings are "likely to become energized," they are treated like any other metallic object and must be bonded.
How is changing copper to plastic piping an upgrade? Copper has several advantages, especially if it is already existing. Yes, PEX may be easier to work with, but it's still plastic.
PEX Plumbing Disadvantages: What You Need to Know
When it comes to thinking about installing or replacing your plumbing, you probably get overwhelmed by the options. Even if you are doing a smaller job, it can quickly spiral out of control as you stand at the hardware store trying to determine the right materials, sizes, and shapes. PEX...
smartchoice.plumbing
Copper corrodes and can burst if it freezes.How is changing copper to plastic piping an upgrade? Copper has several advantages, especially if it is already existing. Yes, PEX may be easier to work with, but it's still plastic.
PEX Plumbing Disadvantages: What You Need to Know
When it comes to thinking about installing or replacing your plumbing, you probably get overwhelmed by the options. Even if you are doing a smaller job, it can quickly spiral out of control as you stand at the hardware store trying to determine the right materials, sizes, and shapes. PEX...
There are advantages to each. My house had a copper plumbing system with lots of nonfunctional shutoffs and it had been tapped into and modified so many times it wasn't worth trying to work with. So I went with a manifold block and PEX it was much cheaper faster and easier than replacing with copper.How is changing copper to plastic piping an upgrade? Copper has several advantages, especially if it is already existing. Yes, PEX may be easier to work with, but it's still plastic.
PEX Plumbing Disadvantages: What You Need to Know
When it comes to thinking about installing or replacing your plumbing, you probably get overwhelmed by the options. Even if you are doing a smaller job, it can quickly spiral out of control as you stand at the hardware store trying to determine the right materials, sizes, and shapes. PEX...
Yes, I can see if the house plumbing is a total mess how it could be an upgrade. It's cheaper, faster and easier, but with caveats. Once properly set up, copper is no maintenance. I will stick with all copper supply plumbing in our house. Health and rodent concerns outweigh the advantages for me.
A lot of the issues with PEX are overblown, and many of the gripes come from when it was first implemented and PEX quality and design weren't quite up to par, especially when matched with plumbers new to the product. Every house around here is now built with PEX and have been for some time, no recurring issues to speak of. Fittings can leak if not crimped properly, but I guess the same is true if a copper joint isn't soldered correctly either. Of the million things I have to worry about, the PEX plumbing in my house isn't one of them.
Highbeam
Minister of Fire
Copper corrodes and leaks. I don’t want that garbage in my walls. Much easier to work with pex for revisions, upgrades, replacements, even just changing the toilet valve (stopcock). It doesn’t need all those bends.
I want every bit of it gone. I only have one last hose bib that’s buried in the wall.
Once you’ve gone to pex, copper welded together is totally ridiculous. We just do not have the rodent problems that some have read about.
I want every bit of it gone. I only have one last hose bib that’s buried in the wall.
Once you’ve gone to pex, copper welded together is totally ridiculous. We just do not have the rodent problems that some have read about.
Too many possible posts to quote so I'll just say it here. I'm replacing the copper with pex in sections over time because my copper is slowly disappearing from the inside out. I don't think I'd plumb a house with copper again. This episode started with a sudden spray appearing on Saturday. And will hopefully end tomorrow. Until the next time it happens. On the topic, sounds like maybe I should keep extending the ground wire and moving the clamp until I run out of copper. Or maybe even just clamp it to a pex fitting - haven't seen that before. But these days even the fittings are getting to be plastic too.
Ok guess I'll quote this one. Is pex less healthy than copper leaching into your drinking water? That is a question of genuine curiosity.
Are they replacing the pipe coming through your foundation? If not, run the ground to that pipe.
'They' is me. The one coming in from the well is 1" plastic. Not replacing that for a while yet I hope. I have a hot water copper line not far from where the ground is clamped to the cold. Would be a fairly easy shift over 'for now'. Starting to have nightmares over this stuff after studying the spider web of copper I have going on here a few nights ago. Especially looking at the ones disappearing up through the basement ceiling to the second floor. Really don't want to be opening walls up if those get leaky.
Now that I've thought about this more, I'm thinking I should move that ground clamp over to the hot water line anyway. Things changed when I redid my heating system in 2012 and my cold is not directly connected metallically to my hot anymore. There's a piece of pex in between. And I switched my DHW to electric then. Never gave this a thought back then.
in mass i've had inspectors say to get the ground wire off the gas line. for safety sake because of lighting. it doesn't matter to the code book that you have a ground thru your main water supply or the size of the service i have to run 2 ground rods 8 feet down and they have to be a minimum 6 feet apart for any service change or panel change. bonding is just that. bonding. if a water supply some how gets energized most likely it will be outside of the house and most water not all will keep it to earth ground outside. the only thing that gets a bonding wire inside the house that i'm aware of is copper pipe system or a jacuzzi tub. anything metal within 6 feet has to be bonded to the motor or motors
hockeypuck
Feeling the Heat
I think this is even more important with the flexible SS gas line that is covered in yellow plastic. We have had inspectors here saying the same thing. Do not ground the gas lines. A metal water line coming in from municipal can be the best ground available. Sometimes too good. I had to call a local power company to come out and inspect their ground at the pole because i could see an arc when I pulled the ground off the water line coming into the home.
code fore the yellow gas lines were when they were installed a #6 wire had to be installed running parallel with the gas line
fire_man
Minister of Fire
I made the mistake of calling my town's electrical inspector office. I wanted to know what type of smoke detectors were recommended (ionization or photoelecric) and I got my head handed to me for not being a licensed electrician. It depends on the town and rules regarding doing your own work.
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