Electronic/Microprocessor Controlled Wood Stoves

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Gridlock said:
Well, I suppose the reluctance of electronic control is understandable, but still suprised by the overall intensity of this reluctance. I certainly understand the idea of keeping things simple and the joy of mastering something without electronic intervention. But just think about the possibilities!:

- No more worry about over-firing or back-puffing
- Automatic adjustment of air and damper
- Very precise temperature control
- More efficient use of the fuel
- Reduced emissions
- Ability to measure draft and either make adjustments or report back if insufficient
- Instant reporting of wood moisture levels, BTU content, overall efficiency, etc.
- Going to bed without wondering whether stove-top or CAT temperatures are rising beyond spec
- Ability to start or change settings remotely

Many people had similar feelings about car engines when electronic controls were introduced, but car engines today are leaps and bounds what they used to be before electronic intervention. No human or mechanical widget can provide anything near the kind control than electronics can.



I wonder if bringing stoves into the 21st century might open up whole new markets.
 
Wood moisture levels is one thing I'm curious about--How would this work?

One thing I will note, especially on the comment regarding Cars and electronic controls, is that the fuel supply (this also goes with Pellet stoves too, of course) is standardized. There are specific standards that can be met by the manufacturers who produce the fuel to ensure a minimum quality is kept at all times.
With cordwood, not quite so much.
 
spirilis said:
Wood moisture levels is one thing I'm curious about--How would this work?

One thing I will note, especially on the comment regarding Cars and electronic controls, is that the fuel supply (this also goes with Pellet stoves too, of course) is standardized. There are specific standards that can be met by the manufacturers who produce the fuel to ensure a minimum quality is kept at all times.
With cordwood, not quite so much.
Yes exactly, which is a good reason how electronic control can have such a big impact and can make adjustments much more easily than a human can. Just like the electronics in car engines makes adjustments for octane preventing pinging, and worse detonation, it can make ajustments for wood quality, density, and BTU and moisture content.
 
kenny chaos said:
I wonder if bringing stoves into the 21st century might open up whole new markets.
That's a good point; I think it would as I'm guessing that a lot of people who are scared about operating a wood stove might be more confortable if there is an electonic nanny watching over them.
 
Gridlock said:
kenny chaos said:
I wonder if bringing stoves into the 21st century might open up whole new markets.
That's a good point; I think it would as I'm guessing that a lot of people who are scared about operating a wood stove might be more confortable if there is an electonic nanny watching over them.




Of course there'd be the whole regulations thing we'd all have to adjust to.
 
Gridlock said:
spirilis said:
Wood moisture levels is one thing I'm curious about--How would this work?

One thing I will note, especially on the comment regarding Cars and electronic controls, is that the fuel supply (this also goes with Pellet stoves too, of course) is standardized. There are specific standards that can be met by the manufacturers who produce the fuel to ensure a minimum quality is kept at all times.
With cordwood, not quite so much.
Yes exactly, which is a good reason how electronic control can have such a big impact and can make adjustments much more easily than a human can. Just like the electronics in car engines makes adjustments for octane preventing pinging, and worse detonation, it can make ajustments for wood quality, density, and BTU and moisture content.

That's not exactly the point I was making but I didn't quite spell it out so here it is--

The point here is that an electronic system is -- just that -- a system. It relies on certain parameters to always be constant. A pellet stove relies on moisture content being below 5% (I think?), a gasoline engine requires octane rating to meet a mininum of 87, etc.

What will be the parameters for a cordwood-fired system? Maximum 20% moisture? Maximum 25%? What happens when totally green wood is tossed in? When you buy pellets or gasoline you have reasonable assurance that those parameters are met. As a manufacturer of this proposed electronically-assisted woodstove, you don't have any reasonable assurance that the wood being fed into it will conform to the system's parameters. I'd imagine this will make the appliance's end goal of burning wood efficiently fail and the consumer will be dumbfounded and complain endlessly to the vendor wondering why.

Folks have plenty of things to complain about with modern cars, but usually the fuel they buy isn't one of them. Save for a few fringe cases (e.g. turbocharged vehicles that demand high-octane gas), it's pretty much guaranteed that you get acceptable gasoline no matter where you go in the country. Without controlling the inputs to a reasonable standard, I don't see this electronically-assisted system providing a superior solution over mechanical technology.
 
spirilis said:
Gridlock said:
spirilis said:
Wood moisture levels is one thing I'm curious about--How would this work?

One thing I will note, especially on the comment regarding Cars and electronic controls, is that the fuel supply (this also goes with Pellet stoves too, of course) is standardized. There are specific standards that can be met by the manufacturers who produce the fuel to ensure a minimum quality is kept at all times.
With cordwood, not quite so much.
Yes exactly, which is a good reason how electronic control can have such a big impact and can make adjustments much more easily than a human can. Just like the electronics in car engines makes adjustments for octane preventing pinging, and worse detonation, it can make ajustments for wood quality, density, and BTU and moisture content.

That's not exactly the point I was making but I didn't quite spell it out so here it is--

The point here is that an electronic system is -- just that -- a system. It relies on certain parameters to always be constant. A pellet stove relies on moisture content being below 5% (I think?), a gasoline engine requires octane rating to meet a mininum of 87, etc.

What will be the parameters for a cordwood-fired system? Maximum 20% moisture? Maximum 25%? What happens when totally green wood is tossed in? When you buy pellets or gasoline you have reasonable assurance that those parameters are met. As a manufacturer of this proposed electronically-assisted woodstove, you don't have any reasonable assurance that the wood being fed into it will conform to the system's parameters. I'd imagine this will make the appliance's end goal of burning wood efficiently fail and the consumer will be dumbfounded and complain endlessly to the vendor wondering why.

Folks have plenty of things to complain about with modern cars, but usually the fuel they buy isn't one of them. Save for a few fringe cases (e.g. turbocharged vehicles that demand high-octane gas), it's pretty much guaranteed that you get acceptable gasoline no matter where you go in the country. Without controlling the inputs to a reasonable standard, I don't see this electronically-assisted system providing a superior solution over mechanical technology.



Wood quality would come under the new regulations I was thinking about.
 
kenny chaos said:
spirilis said:
Gridlock said:
spirilis said:
Wood moisture levels is one thing I'm curious about--How would this work?

One thing I will note, especially on the comment regarding Cars and electronic controls, is that the fuel supply (this also goes with Pellet stoves too, of course) is standardized. There are specific standards that can be met by the manufacturers who produce the fuel to ensure a minimum quality is kept at all times.
With cordwood, not quite so much.
Yes exactly, which is a good reason how electronic control can have such a big impact and can make adjustments much more easily than a human can. Just like the electronics in car engines makes adjustments for octane preventing pinging, and worse detonation, it can make ajustments for wood quality, density, and BTU and moisture content.

That's not exactly the point I was making but I didn't quite spell it out so here it is--

The point here is that an electronic system is -- just that -- a system. It relies on certain parameters to always be constant. A pellet stove relies on moisture content being below 5% (I think?), a gasoline engine requires octane rating to meet a mininum of 87, etc.

What will be the parameters for a cordwood-fired system? Maximum 20% moisture? Maximum 25%? What happens when totally green wood is tossed in? When you buy pellets or gasoline you have reasonable assurance that those parameters are met. As a manufacturer of this proposed electronically-assisted woodstove, you don't have any reasonable assurance that the wood being fed into it will conform to the system's parameters. I'd imagine this will make the appliance's end goal of burning wood efficiently fail and the consumer will be dumbfounded and complain endlessly to the vendor wondering why.

Folks have plenty of things to complain about with modern cars, but usually the fuel they buy isn't one of them. Save for a few fringe cases (e.g. turbocharged vehicles that demand high-octane gas), it's pretty much guaranteed that you get acceptable gasoline no matter where you go in the country. Without controlling the inputs to a reasonable standard, I don't see this electronically-assisted system providing a superior solution over mechanical technology.



Wood quality would come under the new regulations I was thinking about.

That would be interesting. Probably spark a whole new market indeed--"certified" firewood and more sophisticated grading & testing for it. If a regulatory system were put in place the electronic woodstove would be doable. I think the pellet stove concept is good enough for these purposes and has the virtue of providing a use case for recycling wood waste. This is why I doubt we'll see much development on this end.
But then with states like WA doing burn-bans and mandating stricter emissions on cordwood stoves, I could most certainly be wrong...
 
BeGreen said:
Had a thermostatic damper on our old Resolute. It worked very well. I agree it would be nice to see this on more stoves.

My Dad still burns in the resolute he bought for us after the second oil shock in the 70s. You control the main air intake with a lever on the back that comes out of a control box, connected to the air intake flap by a small chain.

You can set the flap wide open and then watch as it closes itself down as the stove heats. I thought that inside that box was a simple bimetallic coil, the same as used to regulate the air on new VC (and other) stoves.

Is this what you are referring to, or was there a more sophisticated version?
 
spirilis said:
That's not exactly the point I was making but I didn't quite spell it out so here it is--

The point here is that an electronic system is -- just that -- a system. It relies on certain parameters to always be constant. A pellet stove relies on moisture content being below 5% (I think?), a gasoline engine requires octane rating to meet a mininum of 87, etc.

What will be the parameters for a cordwood-fired system? Maximum 20% moisture? Maximum 25%? What happens when totally green wood is tossed in? When you buy pellets or gasoline you have reasonable assurance that those parameters are met. As a manufacturer of this proposed electronically-assisted woodstove, you don't have any reasonable assurance that the wood being fed into it will conform to the system's parameters. I'd imagine this will make the appliance's end goal of burning wood efficiently fail and the consumer will be dumbfounded and complain endlessly to the vendor wondering why.

Folks have plenty of things to complain about with modern cars, but usually the fuel they buy isn't one of them. Save for a few fringe cases (e.g. turbocharged vehicles that demand high-octane gas), it's pretty much guaranteed that you get acceptable gasoline no matter where you go in the country. Without controlling the inputs to a reasonable standard, I don't see this electronically-assisted system providing a superior solution over mechanical technology.
Good point. I do think that an electronically controlled stove would be able to deal with a wider range of wood quality and moisture content than without electronic intervention, since the electronics can change settings quickly depending on wood burning parameters such as amount of smoke for wood volume/weight, humidity levels in smoke, and BTU output. I would imagine that even the electronics may not be able to deal with certain very high levels of moisture, which may necessitate some minimum standard of wood quality.
 
KISS. Add electronics and gadgets, and the more chance of failure there is. And failure can = unsafe.

A little common sense and a lever or two is safer and more reliable.... JMHO :)
 
bbc557ci said:
KISS. Add electronics and gadgets, and the more chance of failure there is. And failure can = unsafe.

A little common sense and a lever or two is safer and more reliable.... JMHO :)
Just like a modern automobile? Do you think that automobiles with all their 'electronics and gadgets' today are more unsafe and less reliable than ones built 40 years ago without electronics and gadgets?
 
Here's an electronic draft control used on BBQ smoker/grills.
http://www.thebbqguru.com/products/DigiQ-DX--(Build-a-Package).html
I think it's the sort of controller that many would like to see on a wood stove. I have already asked for one for Christmas for my Big Green Egg grill. It lets you set a pit temperature any where you like to allow for overnight cooking of pork butts where you need to maintain 210-220* for 18 hours or more.
I believe that fuel consistency really should not be a major concern, as it's only regulating air flow as a function of temperature.

On edit: link not so good, click on "controls" at left.
 
I had to laugh when I read the last post. I bet if you went over to a BBQ forum and asked this same question about adding electronic control to a grill, you'd get the same pro/against arguments as here.

I like the idea of electronic control for three reasons.

1 - To get the most efficient use of my fuel. (insert carb vs FI engine argument here)
2 - Time savings when I'm running late for work in the morning. Stoke n Fill'er up and go...
Three - Trying to explain how/why to adjust the damper when my wife needs take over the duty (again when I'm late for work in the morning!)

As long as you use robust industrial grade equipment and minimize it, it should last as long as the stove. Wouldn't be real cheap, but you get what you pay for applies most everywhere.

I love my electronically controlled pellet stove for the simplicity of setting the temp, filling it up, having good heat in less than 10 mins. Most of all my wife is not afraid of it!
 
kenny chaos said:
Gridlock said:
Well, I suppose the reluctance of electronic control is understandable, but still suprised by the overall intensity of this reluctance. I certainly understand the idea of keeping things simple and the joy of mastering something without electronic intervention. But just think about the possibilities!:

- No more worry about over-firing or back-puffing
- Automatic adjustment of air and damper
- Very precise temperature control
- More efficient use of the fuel
- Reduced emissions
- Ability to measure draft and either make adjustments or report back if insufficient
- Instant reporting of wood moisture levels, BTU content, overall efficiency, etc.
- Going to bed without wondering whether stove-top or CAT temperatures are rising beyond spec
- Ability to start or change settings remotely

Many people had similar feelings about car engines when electronic controls were introduced, but car engines today are leaps and bounds what they used to be before electronic intervention. No human or mechanical widget can provide anything near the kind control than electronics can.



I wonder if bringing stoves into the 21st century might open up whole new markets.
I doubt it.
 
firefighterjake said:
I suspect the answer is rather simple . .. and can be seen right in this thread . . . manufacturers haven't put a lot of electronics on stoves simply because most folks (including the majority that have commented on this thtread) that tend to buy woodstoves want things to be less complex with fewer parts to potentially break.
Auh, yes Jake! I burn wood for really basic, survival, self sufficiency, instinctive reasons. Therefore, I do not want electronics in my wood stove! I have enough of that in my life already, and when everything finally blows all to hell, I want to stay warm, at least as long as I can hold out.
 
tfdchief said:
firefighterjake said:
I suspect the answer is rather simple . .. and can be seen right in this thread . . . manufacturers haven't put a lot of electronics on stoves simply because most folks (including the majority that have commented on this thtread) that tend to buy woodstoves want things to be less complex with fewer parts to potentially break.
Auh, yes Jake! I burn wood for really basic, survival, self sufficiency, instinctive reasons. Therefore, I do not want electronics in my wood stove! I have enough of that in my life already, and when everything finally blows all to hell, I want to stay warm, at least as long as I can hold out.

Of course . . . you're a firefighter and we have something like 200 plus years of tradition unimpeded by progress . . . or at least that's something like the saying . . . granted we've come a long way from the bucket brigades and fire watches of old. ;)
 
firefighterjake said:
Of course . . . you're a firefighter and we have something like 200 plus years of tradition unimpeded by progress . . . or at least that's something like the saying . . . granted we've come a long way from the bucket brigades and fire watches of old. ;)
;-P
 
Dont think some wont buy it. Put the "best" thing out there and folks will buy. Maybe some who just want heat for as long as possible while not being there. I think this is or would / should be put on furnaces before stoves. However even if it starts with an electric control fail safe to stop an overfire or other danger, it will come. Not all but some stove will. Put stock in that
 
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