Englander 1,800 sq. ft. Wood-Burning Stove draw/lighting issues

[Little Odd Me]

I bought this wood stove about 18 months ago. I have a 10 foot up 6" stovepipe, which then does a 90 degree turn into the wall for about 2 ft where it enters a vertical unlined and uncapped 100 year old chimney. The stovepipe and chimney were cleaned by me this fall, and cleaned by a chimney sweep last week.

The stove worked great last winter, but about a month into using it this season, we started getting smoke leaking from the bend of the stove pipe and from where the pipe meets the wall. Hence the incredibly expensive chimney sweep visit - he diagnosed that we need the stove pipe to go all the way to the top of the chimney and have a cap.

BUT since his visit, it's INCREDIBLY hard to get a fire going at all. Our solution to smoke leaking was to run a very hot fire, which fixed the issue. Now I can't even get the fire to go with the damper fully out, unless the door is open, in which case smoke billows into my living room. As soon as I close the door, the fire goes out. I have cleaned the stove as best I can, getting into all the nooks and crannies, but I just cannot seem to get it going. The chimney sweep says it's just coincidence that this issue started the day he was here and refuses to come back. I have the guys who installed the stovepipe coming after Christmas, but they say they won't look at the stove itself, which I bought from Home Depot, because it was not bought from them. They are the only people who do wood stove stuff in my small rural town.

Help? What should I try next? I have bought some sealer for the stove pipe, but if drawing is the issue, then it will only exacerbate the issue in the stove itself I think?

 

[begreen]

Sounds like a dangerous situation. This stove needs a 6" flue system to perform correctly. Dumping it into an unlined, cold old chimney is a recipe for problems, potentially very serious problems. The stove is not the issue. It needs dry wood and proper draft to function well. Otherwise it is a recipe for creosote and a potential chimney fire. This is especially important at higher altitudes. The chimney needs to be completely cleaned and then an insulated 6" liner installed in order to be safe and function properly.

 

[kennyp2339]

The stove worked great last season, this season the problems started, that's what I'm getting reading this.
The sweep is correct with the need of a full liner but atm the symptoms suggest some type of blockage.
The easiest check is the chimney cap, check for a plugged screen or blocked exit, the next hang up is the inside elbow, I'm assuming that the stove pipe (black) is single wall, the next is creosote falling down the black pipe and laying on top of the baffle plate inside the stove. A full cleaning is needed.
The next question is why the sweep doesn't want to come back to service the old setup, is this because there is a serious safety issue and he doesn't want to be held responsible if there's a fire?
With the liner situation, its recommended to have a liner in a masonry chimney when the chimney it self is to big for the stove (volume wise). A insulated liner is needed when the chimney isn't built to current code for clearances, has cracks in the clay tiles or is recommended by the stove manufacturer.
The benefits of a insulated liner is warmer flue gases which leads to less creosote production, safer operation in the event of a chimney fire, easier cleaning / maintenance.

 

[KindredSpiritzz]

the next is creosote falling down the black pipe and laying on top of the baffle plate inside the stove.

thats what i was thinking, little pile of creosote sitting on top of the baffle blocking air flow. I had that happen to me one chimney cleaning when i wasnt thinking. Just seems strange it worked fine one year and then right after the sweep came this year he couldnt even get a fire going.

 

[jetsam]

There could be a damper or part of a damper that got pulled shut in the old chimney, or a fallen piece of clay flue.... a sweatshirt is apparently not out of the realm of possibility .... lots of stuff could be plugging up the works.

Whatever it is, it was a good thing in that it notified you that you need to line the old chimney. Simple fix, and your stove will thank you. (Also, check the cap... for most people it's the cap, but not so likely for you since your unlined chimney will be condensing all the creosote before it gets up there.)

 

[xman23]

It may not be the spec chimney design, but I agree with, "it worked last year, so it should work now". It sounds like it's plugged up somewhere. I'd follow the exhaust path thru the stove, pull the pipes inside, and up the chimney.

 

[Little Odd Me]

The stove worked great last season, this season the problems started, that's what I'm getting reading this.
The sweep is correct with the need of a full liner but atm the symptoms suggest some type of blockage.
The easiest check is the chimney cap, check for a plugged screen or blocked exit, the next hang up is the inside elbow, I'm assuming that the stove pipe (black) is single wall, the next is creosote falling down the black pipe and laying on top of the baffle plate inside the stove. A full cleaning is needed.
The next question is why the sweep doesn't want to come back to service the old setup, is this because there is a serious safety issue and he doesn't want to be held responsible if there's a fire?
With the liner situation, its recommended to have a liner in a masonry chimney when the chimney it self is to big for the stove (volume wise). A insulated liner is needed when the chimney isn't built to current code for clearances, has cracks in the clay tiles or is recommended by the stove manufacturer.
The benefits of a insulated liner is warmer flue gases which leads to less creosote production, safer operation in the event of a chimney fire, easier cleaning / maintenance.

There is no chimney cap, which is an issue of its own. But no problem with the cap itself, since there isn't any.

The sweep doesn't want to come back because I am an hour away, I assume. And he doesn't want to come all this way for free when in Denver there is a ton of paid work for him right now. He has not stated there is a serious safety issue, rather he says he fixed things and the fact that the fire suddenly won't draw is not his fault.

I am getting the original people who did my chimney to quote me tomorrow on extending the chimney. I asked for a lined one when I got it installed, but they didn't have one available. I asked what the advantage was (as a complete noob I accepted their reply that it wasn't really necessary, ugh). After my recent research I think I need to have my current stove pipe replaced with a lined one when I have so much distance for the smoke to travel, and one that goes all the way through the old chimney to a cap.

 

[Little Odd Me]

There could be a damper or part of a damper that got pulled shut in the old chimney, or a fallen piece of clay flue.... a sweatshirt is apparently not out of the realm of possibility .... lots of stuff could be plugging up the works.

Whatever it is, it was a good thing in that it notified you that you need to line the old chimney. Simple fix, and your stove will thank you. (Also, check the cap... for most people it's the cap, but not so likely for you since your unlined chimney will be condensing all the creosote before it gets up there.)

Ha. When I bought the place, the opening of the old chimney into the building was blocked by a paper plate that had been spray painted black. I did ask the guys who installed to check for any blockages, but I'm not sure that they did now. The chimney sweep said there was a blockage, but then he said it was just that the chimney didn't have a stove pipe. For a guy who said he was formerly a lawyer, he sure couldn't explain things well.

So - line the old chimney part, that's happening for sure, I'll get a piece of stove pipe run up there. As I posted in the original post and another reply, there is no cap, no cap at all right now. That definitely will be happening.

 

[Little Odd Me]

It may not be the spec chimney design, but I agree with, "it worked last year, so it should work now". It sounds like it's plugged up somewhere. I'd follow the exhaust path thru the stove, pull the pipes inside, and up the chimney.

I'm a bit of a noob at this, what do you mean by "pull the pipes", please? you mean drag something through them?

I'm going to get the guys who did the original installation to follow the pipes through, looking for an obstruction.

 

[Little Odd Me]

thats what i was thinking, little pile of creosote sitting on top of the baffle blocking air flow. I had that happen to me one chimney cleaning when i wasnt thinking. Just seems strange it worked fine one year and then right after the sweep came this year he couldnt even get a fire going.

Ohhhhh. I have these flares happening occasionally, and smoke puffing out. That would make even more sense of this hypothesis. I did notice that while the chimney sweep had the stove covered and had a shop vac in the bottom while he did the sweep, I didn't see him move the baffle at all. Also, a tiny piece of the baffle is now broken off (about a square inch on the middle in the back). I will let the fire die down today and see if I can tip the baffle and get any creosote off. Thank you.

 

[Little Odd Me]

Sounds like a dangerous situation. This stove needs a 6" flue system to perform correctly. Dumping it into an unlined, cold old chimney is a recipe for problems, potentially very serious problems. The stove is not the issue. It needs dry wood and proper draft to function well. Otherwise it is a recipe for creosote and a potential chimney fire. This is especially important at higher altitudes. The chimney needs to be completely cleaned and then an insulated 6" liner installed in order to be safe and function properly.

There is a six inch stovepipe reaching up right to the last three feet, which is the unlined chimney. When you say an "insulated 6" liner", I suppose you are recommending that for that last three feet, but also I should probably get a lined stove pipe all the way up to where the unlined chimney starts?

 

[begreen]

The insulated 6" stainless steel liner goes inside the chimney, for its full length to the top where it is capped. If the stove pipe run connecting the stove to the chimney is relatively short then it can remain single wall stove pipe.

 

[jetsam]

I'm a bit of a noob at this, what do you mean by "pull the pipes", please? you mean drag something through them?

I'm going to get the guys who did the original installation to follow the pipes through, looking for an obstruction.

You are most likely going to want to learn to sweep the flue yourself anyway. The equipment pays itself back the first time you use it- how many of your tools can you say that about?

For now, grab a screwdriver and your best flashlight, and peer down the old chimney. Then take all the elbows off and peer down all the lengths of stovepipe, and into the stove. You will most likely see the issue.

 

[Little Odd Me]

The insulated 6" stainless steel liner goes inside the chimney, for its full length to the top where it is capped. If the stove pipe run connecting the stove to the chimney is relatively short then it can remain single wall stove pipe.

It's ten feet, and has a ninety degree bend at about the ten foot mark, then another two feet to the wall, which is where it enters the last three feet or so of unlined chimney. I don't consider 10-12 feet of pipe short, though. What would you consider "relatively short"?

 

[begreen]

Agreed, that's not short. It's recommended that stove pipe be double-wall if over 8'.

By the sounds of things if there is plugging it is most likely in the horizontal part of the pipe. But first check on top of the baffle of the stove to make sure there isn't a pile of crud blocking the flue outlet.

Can you post some pictures of this installation and maybe an outside picture of the chimney?

 

[moresnow]

How long is the horizontal run at the top of the connector pipe? From the 90 to where it dumps into the inside of the chimney?

 

[maple1]

You only have 3' of chimney? Pics might help. That sounds odd.

 

[Little Odd Me]

You only have 3' of chimney? Pics might help. That sounds odd.

I have twelve foot of stovepipe which leads into the wall and at that point it enters my three feet of chimney.

 

[Little Odd Me]

How long is the horizontal run at the top of the connector pipe? From the 90 to where it dumps into the inside of the chimney?

About two feet. A little less.

 

[maple1]

I have twelve foot of stovepipe which leads into the wall and at that point it enters my three feet of chimney.

Still sounds odd. Might be me but I can't picture how 3 feet of chimney can clear a roofline far enough.

 

[jetsam]

Still sounds odd. Might be me but I can't picture how 3 feet of chimney can clear a roofline far enough.

Exterior chimneys can be right on the ridgeline.

 

[Woody Stover]

BUT since his visit, it's INCREDIBLY hard to get a fire going at all

thats what i was thinking, little pile of creosote sitting on top of the baffle blocking air flow. I had that happen to me one chimney cleaning when i wasnt thinking. Just seems strange it worked fine one year and then right after the sweep came this year he couldnt even get a fire going.

I didn't see him move the baffle at all. Also, a tiny piece of the baffle is now broken off (about a square inch on the middle in the back). I will let the fire die down today and see if I can tip the baffle and get any creosote off. Thank you.

Sounds like that will get it running. You need to repair or replace the baffle, or it won't run well. Then extend the liner all the way out of the top of the masonry chimney. The fact that he didn't remove the baffle, and poked a hole in it, is proof that he is a hack. You need to get a reputable sweep in there to fix the install and clean out any dangerous creosote that remains. Use references to select your next sweep. They are really backed up this time of year, though, and you may have to just do it yourself (if you can learn enough to do it safely.)

 

[Little Odd Me]

Still sounds odd. Might be me but I can't picture how 3 feet of chimney can clear a roofline far enough.

It doesn't clear the roofline. I have an almost flat roof with a slight lip around it where the triple brick house walls come up around the roof. The chimney is level with this brick lip, it does not extend up above it, it is essentially just a hole in the lip.

 

[maple1]

Um yah I think pics would help. That doesnt sound like a good setup the way I read it.

 

[Little Odd Me]

Sounds like that will get it running. You need to repair or replace the baffle, or it won't run well. Then extend the liner all the way out of the top of the masonry chimney. The fact that he didn't remove the baffle, and poked a hole in it, is proof that he is a hack. You need to get a reputable sweep in there to fix the install and clean out any dangerous creosote that remains. Use references to select your next sweep. They are really backed up this time of year, though, and you may have to just do it yourself (if you can learn enough to do it safely.)

I know how to clean it, I have the tools, and I did it myself this last summer.

I'm having the original install guys come out today to see it. I now understand with such a long run of stovepipe that they should have put in double walled. I'm loathe to go to the expense of doing it all over again, but I now know enough to at least do my own work on the inside stretch.

The sweep was coming out to assess what the problem was, and cleaned it again as well. I didn't have much choice of people, I live an hour from a city that is bursting with new arrivals, and so chimney people are an even more scarce commodity. I agree he was a hack. At least he got the process started. I have left negative reviews, and called and written to the company who referred him, telling them about the issues.