Englander NCH 30 not getting air into firebox

[Mtngoat69]

Newbie here, read all previous posts and tried all the remedies, but still have some strange goings on and I by no means know how ow these things are supposed to work.
Removed an old smoke dragon from my basement, heated well but used a ton of wood.
Found this englander on CL for $300, read a lot of reviews and looked like a good deal so I picked her up.
It's in a basement with about 4' of 6" stove pipe going into a masonry chimney with an elbow. No idea what size the chimney is but it's about 25' to top.
Lit her off and smoke pours out the door and at every joint of the stove pipe, quits if I close the door but then the fire goes out.
Air damper seems to have no effect on the Fire at all. Wondering if I knocked something loose in there when I was moving it?
When I did manage to get a fire started with some old 2x4 scraps ( thought my wood might be too green) smoke pours from where the elbow goes into the chimney, until I close the door , which puts the fire out. So I suffered through the smoke with the door open got a decent fire going, never a real roaring fire, good bed of coals , but the fire dies down and just looks kind of lazy with the air wide open. I can close it completely and there's no change.finally managed to get it going for awhile by raking grooves in the coals., but every time I so much as crack the door smoke pours from everywhere. Called englander and they said 25' is to much to draft even though there manual says it's acceptable . I put a blower into the 3 in intake and still no effect on the fire just made smoke pour out at all the flue seams. Either one of 2 things primary air is blocked somehow or no draft. In the case of the latter would a liner help? Any help would be appreciated

 

[tarzan]

While we wait on the experts, do you have any type of liner in the chimney? What size?

 

[EatenByLimestone]

The 1st thing I would look at art the ceramic boards on the top of the fire box. Make sure they are pushed all of the way to the back. If they are too far forward, they can push smoke out the door. Be careful doing it though. They're a bit fragile.

When was the chimney cleaned last? It's not a new chimney and may be full of creosote. What temperature was it outside? Can you make a guess about the size? 8x8, 8x12, 10x10?

Tell me about the wood, even the 2x4s you were trying to burn.

 

[wahoowad]

You say you have 4' of 6" pipe stuck up in the masonry chimney. Is there a block off plate to seal it up? If not then I fear you have very little draft generated.

 

[saichele]

So let's back up. The chimney isn't sucking like it should. Which means 1) there isn't enough hot air rising through the chimney, or 2) the air is coming from somewhere else (bad seams, bad connection, open cleanout at the bottom of the chimney), or perhaps 3) there's some kind of blockage. Normally it's OK to have some small gaps at the pipe joints, because there's a vacuum pulling room air into the stack.

So I think I'd start with the blockage - either creosote buildup or maybe a hunk of creosote (or squirrel, raccoon) fell down the chimney. Next issue is air leaks - start from the chimney and work back. Last might just be temperature. It varies a lot based on the chimney and location, but draft is driven by the differential between the warm air in the smoke and the surrounding air. Your old stove sent a lot of heat up the chimney, this one is going to send a lot less. It may just be too warm in NC for this set up.

 

[brenndatomu]

I agree, it's just too warm outside to get that chimney to draft correctly. You could try blowing a hairdryer up the chimney for 10-15 minutes before starting a fire, or a propane torch works too. Better investigate that chimney first though, see what you are dealing with as far as size/material/condition

 

[Mtngoat69]

Have a chimney sweep coming Tuesday. This is s hundred year old farm house, actually has 2 chimneys, one off the kitchen that is blocked off and the one in the basement. I can see the tera cotta on the top of the blocked off one and appears to be 6"x"8 , no idea of the one I'm using yet.
I'm in the mountains in NC gets pretty cold here , we have weeks of sub zero weather but it was in the high 30's last night . No block off plate. Checked my wood with a moisture meter , it's st 20% the scrap lumber was anywhere from 3-11%. Why when I blew air into the intake , did the fire not intensify? Only caused more back drafting. How does the sir get into the firebox? Through the cracks between the firebrick? I can pull the elbow out of the chimney and watch the chimney draw, looks to be pretty good but if I even unlock the door handle all hell breaks loose. She's did burn a little better as it hot colder and the fire got hotter but I never did notice any change when I moved the air damper which leads me to believe it's blocked somehow. She does hold heat, since 2 am to 10am still hot red bed of coals old stove wouldn't last an hour! Lol! We'll get her figured out I hope. Think I'm going to order a liner anyway, can't hirt I guess. Thanks for all the replies

 

[tarzan]

Hold off on ordering the liner until the sweep comes.

That said, I do believe your problem will lie in the chimney.

 

[begreen]

Draft is what pulls air into the firebox. It could be either the chimney is plugged at the cap or internally, the chimney tile ID is too large, or there is negative pressure in the basement. All 3 will cause draft to be poor or reverse.

This article may be helpful:
http://www.gulland.ca/florida_bungalow_syndrome.htm

 

[bholler]

I would say wait for the sweep to check the chimney out it sounds like a partally blocked chimney to me. Or possibly ane that is either so over sized or so leaky it wont draft properly

 

[Mtngoat69]

Cleaned her out today and hooked up shop vac in reverse and blew air into the air inlet. Air rushed down from the top front and nothing from what I am assuming is the air wash in the lower center up front. Is this normal?

 

[begreen]

Top front is where the airwash is delivered from. I have read here that the lower front boost manifold gets its air from small holes behind the front legs.

 

[BrotherBart]

The airwash it is the primary combustion air coming from the round inlet in the bottom back of the stove. The one you were blowing into. It comes down over the glass and turns back into the fire. The little "doghouse" in the front is boost air and is fed by a hole behind each front leg. The secondary tubes are fed by the rectangular hole in the bottom of the back of the firebox.

 

[Mtngoat69]

Mine doesn't have legs , it's on a pedestal I guess you would call it . So there should be hole in the front corners. I don't recall seeing one in the back anywhere for the secondarys

 

[Grisu]

Lit her off and smoke pours out the door and at every joint of the stove pipe,

smoke pours from where the elbow goes into the chimney

smoke pour out at all the flue seams.

When you have smoke coming out of your pipe with the door open your problem is not the air inlet but your chimney. Is there a cap with a screen on top? Maybe you got a bird's nest or similar in there over the summer. I would stop playing around with the stove until the sweep has been there.

 

[Mtngoat69]

Had no problem with draft on the old smoke dragon I was using it until 2-3 days ago. So much draft it was burning a load of wood every hour. Same size flue pipe

 

[Mtngoat69]

You're right I'll let the sweep check things out. I'm sure it needs cleaning. But with my luck I doubt that will solve my issue. Englander's tech support says these stoves can't draw over 13-15' . I find that hard to believe. Manual says 25' . Which is about what I have . I
Fear the chimney may be too big

 

[begreen]

An EPA stove requires stronger draft to pull the air through the manifolds. But as noted earlier there could be clogging of the cap screen. That will kill draft. Warm outside temps will do the same. These stoves work fine with 20-25' chimneys.

 

[Mtngoat69]

Good to know. What kind of outside temps are optimal. We just moved up to NC mountains from Florida. The low 40's is cold to us and the stove is the main source of heat in the house , so I hope I can get her figured out before it gets real vold

 

[Mtngoat69]

Well sweep came today, boy I'm in the wrong line of work , $200 for 10 min of work. I think my draw problem was an extra piece of stove pipe pushed all the way to the backside of the thimble. Didn't know it was there.Seems to draw good , no smoke coming into the basement when I open the door, fire gets going really good, but still wants to go out when I shut the door! Found out it's an 8"x 8" chimney . Sweep said it should be more than good enough. Am I not getting it hot enough before closing the door?

 

[Bigg_Redd]

Your chimney is blocked

 

[begreen]

I think my draw problem was an extra piece of stove pipe pushed all the way to the backside of the thimble. Didn't know it was there.

Was this pipe removed and that thimble hole sealed tightly?

 

[tarzan]

What were the outside temps when you lit the stove.

It has been unseasonably warm here and only dropped to around 55f last night.

Reason I asked is you live a little south of me but I know the part of NC where ( I think you live?) can get its own weather from the mountains.

 

[tarzan]

Don't mean to be to intrusive but I checked the weather in your area.

52f and 87% humidity.

That's awful weather to trouble shoot a draft problem.

 

[Mtngoat69]

Asked the sweep about weather temps , his opinion was that it shouldn't matter. They're calling for snow Saturday and temps in the low 20's . We shall see