EPA Phase III?

[Todd]

Anyone hear any good rumors on a new EPA phase III? I wonder how low they will go on gph numbers? After talking with Woodstock about their upgrade they stated that one of the reasons they are doing it is to get ahead of the next EPA burning phase, The Fireview is at 1.3 gph, is it possible to get down to near 0 gph?

 

[BrotherBart]

The Fireview is at 1.3 gph, is it possible to get down to near 0 gph?

My Englander does it in June, July and August. ;-)

 

[Wet1]

Todd,
Did you ever find out what modification it is WS is doing?

 

[Todd]

Todd,
Did you ever find out what modification it is WS is doing?

They aren't giving many in depth answers about this, but it has something to do with injecting secondary air to make some sort of cat/secondary air hybrid. I talked to 3 different people there, one said it should be ready soon, maybe by next season, another said it's still in R&D;and everythings on the table and the other said he didn't know much about it and they are always testing different things. But if they have to make a 1.3 gph stove cleaner for future EPA ratings it kind a makes you wonder how much lower they can go and how this is going to effect the industry?

 

[Pagey]

I just hope we don't end up with such an "environmental" administration one day that we actually see the outright banning of solid fuel appliances. These people think they're saving the earth by preventing us from burning trees, but they don't take the time to examine where our heat would otherwise come from (coal fired power plants generating electricity, e.g.).

 

[begreen]

Todd, where can one find more about the proposals for EPA Phase III? I found Colorado Phase III (same as EPA II). And I found EPA Phase III info for groundwater, but didn't turn up anything regarding a change in the EPA stove regulations.

 

[BrotherBart]

The next thing will be a crack down on existing non-EPA stoves before they tighten the screws on the Phase II requirements.

 

[Todd]

The Fireview is at 1.3 gph, is it possible to get down to near 0 gph?

My Englander does it in June, July and August. ;-)

Ya know BB that if the EPA comes out with a new standard under 1gph you will have to tell the wife you need a new stove. ;-)

 

[Todd]

Todd, where can one find more about the proposals for EPA Phase III? I found Colorado Phase III (same as EPA II). And I found EPA Phase III info for groundwater, but didn't turn up anything regarding a change in the EPA stove regulations.

Don't know, that's why I was asking if anyone else heard anything.

 

[begreen]

Starting to sound a bit like an urban legend or a burningissues.com dream.

 

[BrotherBart]

Ya know BB that if the EPA comes out with a new standard under 1gph you will have to tell the wife you need a new stove. ;-)

Mine only tested .63 over that. She wouldn't let me get rid of that hoss for anything. Every time I lament not having my old Sierra she tells me to get the hell over it. She hasn't ever been this warm. Even when we went down to zero outside for a couple of nights.

And I do not ever want to move a 500 pound stove again as long as my old busted up knees live. In fact I don't know how many more loads of wood toted out of the woods I have left in me. That is what the pellet puppy is sitting in the basement waiting for.

 

[fossil]

Phase IV will be woodstoves that suck contaminants out of the atmoshpere while they burn. Rick

 

[madrone]

I can't find anything either, but I suspect the speculation here is right:

(broken link removed to http://www.chimneysweeponline.com/hoepareg.htm)

No huge increase in efficiency required, just phasing out the upper limits of the current rules. Getting rid of the worst offenders, as was suggested above.

 

[gibson]

There is $100 billion in the stimulus package for everyone to upgrade their EPA rated stoves.

 

[73blazer]

Phase IV will be woodstoves that suck contaminants out of the atmoshpere while they burn. Rick

And automatically report your burning statistics (while dening you the ability to read said statistics) to the gov't via the cell or satellite network, and the gov't and local police agency's can remotely render your stove unusable via a remote command. Kinda like OBDIV in the automotive world was supposed to do before the privacy people bawked too much and stopped it, for the time being.

 

[woodzilla]

It will be another case of good intentions not being thought out. If there is no need for firewood, then the trees will sit and rot om the ground, releasing co2! These restrictions are becomming ludicrous.

 

[savageactor7]

^ that's the trouble with government regulators...their always looking for something else to regulate. That's why current chain saw carbs can't be tuned and the chain oilers are miserly with the oil.

 

[madrone]

Woah! Hang on tight, everyone, we're falling into the Ash Can!!

 

[rowerwet]

so is our country! right now.

 

[Intheswamp]

Well, before I started a new thread on Phase III stoves I searched and found this thread. I don't know if this is rumor or not, but I just got an email from a guy (probably buying my F3CB from him) in a corporate meeting in Dallas where he stated that they're going over new EPA and DOE regulations and it looks like things are moving to Phase III and that open fireplaces will no longer be exempt.

I'm not smart enough or knowledgeable enough to really discuss this, just passing on what I heard. FWIW

Ed

 

[Stephen in SoKY]

Phase IV will be woodstoves that suck contaminants out of the atmoshpere while they burn. Rick

All the while it will be raining skittles out of the stack to feed all the little unicorns.

 

[FyreBug]

Hi guys if I may comment. We are in the industry and are heavily involved with what is happening with EPA. The reason EPA is pushing for some radical changes is because they waited too long in their mandate to go to the next phase. Therefore it seems they are pushing for some very aggressive timelines and emission standards to make up for lost time.

This is what we know... Initially they standards they were discussing were very low, in the range of 1 to 2 g/hr. Now, back in 1990 when EPA standards kicked in the amount of wood burning appliance MFG went from around 600 down to 60. The reason being it takes a fair amount of capital to design, test & certify these burn boxes. Currently the major certifying labs are overwhelmed with their current daily business with some lenghty wait times for new projects. Now, imagine EPA going to 2 g/hr by 2011/2012... very few would be able to meet the deadlines. Not to mention the overall cost to the MFG's to develop new technologies and products to meet these requirements.

You would likely see many MFG's get out of the business altogether with only a few players left. Almost overnight you would see the price of wood burning appliances jump. This would be bad for everyone concerned.

The Industry through HPBA is attempting to convince EPA to move to Washington State Standards of 4.5 g/hr. Most manufacturers can meet this in short order without breaking the bank. Then implement a 5 year phase in for a more restrictive program to give time for the industry to develop new technologies to meet these standards.

Also, the new phase wil not allow for any 'exempt' status and will likely cover all categories (kitchen stoves, ZC, boiler, furnaces etc...)

Keep in mind the difference between 2 g/hr & 4.5g/hr doesnt really exist in 'real life' situation. Lab burning is not 'old guy burning wood'. Therefore the industry is trying to convince EPA to adopt 'real life' burning protocol such as using mixed hard wood among other things.

There's a lot more than this that can be covered in a short span. But if you are in the industry, we urge you to join HPBA and involved with your local chapter

 

[gohabsgo]

Most dealers who really want to hear the latest developments about future EPA regulations should make sure that they join HPBA! Their Government Affairs committee is involved with EPA at all stages of the process. At the next HPBExpo is Salt Lake (March 2011), dealers will be able to hear about the latest developments.

What we know right now...

EPA is expected to announce their proposed regulation next summer. Then, one year later, it would take effect. There will likely be a phase-in period of 2 or more years if the bar is lower than 4.5g/h. However, Washington State level (4.5 g/h) is expected to be required within 60 days after the new regulation becoming effective.

A recent study conducted by a recognized accredited lab was presented to EPA. The main conclusion is the following:

Variability in wood heater emission testing results for any given appliance is most likely a function of the random nature of burning wood, no matter how tightly one tries to control the process. Many relatively small, uncontrollable variables that are inherent in wood combustion process can combine to significantly affect the outcome of any given test. The primary conclusion is that the current testing process simply cannot reliably distinguish emissions performance differences of less than 4 to 6 grams per hour. The process is certainly capable of distinguishing between good and bad performance, but it cannot reliably distinguish between good, better, and best performance. The variability of the test method makes it unclear how EPA can establish an emission target under 5g/h for any appliance. Simply put, the results of this method are so highly variable that any low number has as much to do with luck – or grace – as with science.

So this will be an interesting story to follow...

 

[BrotherBart]

The short term result will be dealer's inventories of new stoves being sucked dry in the run-up to the implementation date of any new regs.

 

[EatenByLimestone]

I wonder if the scrubbing has to be done in the stove? Maybe a section of pipe could be lined with a catalyst. I've seen articles mentioning car radiators being sprayed with a catalyitic coating so it would scrub the air as the vehicle drives down the road.

Matt