ETHANOL GAS

[Henz]

Dont know if anyone has started this topic yet but i think its a good topic of discussion. from what i read, the ethanol fuel is harsh on engines particular smaller engines..Dries out lines etc..What does everyone else hear?
I was at the saw shop yesterday picking up a new chain and they had some small bottles of ethanol treatment on the counter. I picked up a bottle. goes a long ways, 2tsp for like 5 gallons or something.

 

[smokinj]

I dont buy ethanol for my saws at all cost ,but had to one time ran a tank through it then but the rest in my truck

 

[Henz]

i cant find a gas station here that doesnt have it

 

[smokinj]

i cant find a gas station here that doesnt have it

we still have one chain "BP" that doesn't add ethanol, sure would do what you are if it comes down to it. Sthil says its ok but the dealerships seem to think different

 

[Highbeam]

i cant find a gas station here that doesnt have it

Neither can I. 10% is the norm with some claim about less pollution. I haven't noticed a difference in any of my equipment allthough I did just have a fuel system problem in my poulan. Maybe that had something to do with ethanol? I picked up an air leak through the carbs fuel pump system.

 

[Henz]

my dads John Deere Tractor ran like crap this year. He puts stabil in thegas but still it ran like crap..he removed all old gas and put new in..ran better. I guess the ethanol seperates out of the fuel over long periods

 

[firefighterjake]

This topic was discussed here not too awful long ago in several threads . . . and on many forums that I frequent (i.e. ATVTime.com, Sledmaine.com and of course Hearth.com) . . . from what I can gather AWB you hit the nail on the head . . . seems like most modern small engines are OK with E-10 . . . but long term storage could lead to fuel/water/alcohol separations.

My approach -- for better or for worse -- is to run things as I have always done (no need to treat the fuel for every fill up) . . . but long term storage = some type of stabilizing chemical (i.e. Stabil, Startron, K-100, etc.)

I have heard that older motors with older "rubber" fittings have had some issues . . . but I'm not sure if this is true, hear-say or fear mongering.

Some folks have also reported some engines may be running a bit leaner . . . but this seems to be mostly on machines like sleds which have been tuned and are right on the edge of fuel/oil/air mixtures vs. stock ratios. I asked our local sled shop/ATV shop/chainsaw shop if they had any issues after winter was over and they said they had only two issues with burn down . . . one definitely, one questionable . . . and they really couldn't pin it on E-10. Another shop up in the County told a co-worker they had zero issues with burn down because of E-10 . . . burn downs from bad fuel and lack of maintenance however was another matter.

 

[Henz]

We are kind of nervous about our 1985 Evinrude 70HP Marine engine

 

[Brian VT]

Nasty stuff. It takes more energy (OIL) to produce ethanol, than what you get from it and you get less MPG.
And now the gubment is talking about mandating 15%. Makes no sense to me.
Watch the price of corn (and thus meat, milk, etc.) skyrocket.
Luckily I have a gas station that sells ethanol-free gas. They proudly advertise it on a large roadside sign.

 

[John_M]

About ten years ago I read an article about ethenol fortified fuel. It was written by a petroleum engineer. As I recall, he said the ethenol gasoline does not have a negative effect on the engine but it can negatively affect some of the older rubber fuel lines and gaskets. Those lines and gaskets were not manufactured to accommodate the drying/hardening effects of ethanol modified fuel. He wrote that most of the newer fuel lines are compatible with ethanol and these lines frequently have the ethanol/alcohol rating stamped on the line.

John_M

 

[Jags]

We are kind of nervous about our 1985 Evinrude 70HP Marine engine

I have a 70HP merc of the same vintage, and have had no problems to date with the E-10 stuff. I don't know if it makes a difference or not, but I also run Sea Foam in my gas. That is some great stuff.

 

[LLigetfa]

my dads John Deere Tractor ran like crap this year. He puts stabil in thegas but still it ran like crap..he removed all old gas and put new in..ran better. I guess the ethanol seperates out of the fuel over long periods

Stabil is purported to have a short shelf life. I guess you need a stabilizer for Stabil. :bug:

I also heard that there is a special version of Stabil for E10 gas.

 

[billb3]

We've had (up to) 10% here for quite a while.
Snow blower started up fine last December. (actually There was black crap at the needle valve and it wouldn't start and run good, but that has been blamed on the fuel line age)
Roto-tiller, push mower and riding mower all started up Sunday with last year's gas in the tanks just fine.
My stihl sits for months sometimes and I haven't had troubles with it either. ( line cracked a while back and I was blaming gas. but it ended up cracking some more)

There's been some rather well documented cases of fiberglass gas tanks on fiberglass boats having problems with ethanol fortified gas.

A few years back there were a few problems with gaskets or seals in diesels when they went to dye for tax purposes. Supposedly the dye.

 

[Gooserider]

FFJ and some of the others pretty much have it... There are some "edge cases" - rubber parts in older engines, fiberglass gas tanks, etc. where E-10 is a problem, but for the bulk of us, 10% ethanol is no problem as long as we keep the gas reasonably fresh, and in containers that don't allow it to pick up moisture from the air.

E-10 is a little more prone to aging problems, but different from the varnish you used to get w/ regular gas. The E-10 aging issue is that it tends to pick up moisture from the air, at which point it separates out of the gas, so you end up with a tank that has straight gas on top, and an ethanol / water mix on the bottom - the mix will run like crap, but not cause problems otherwise in a 4-stroke, but in a two stroke it can cause MAJOR problems as the mix-oil doesn't dissolve in ethanol, so the ethanol / water mix is like running straight gas - with a similar engine damage pattern if you run to much of it...

Moral of story is keep your gas reasonably fresh, and store it in tight closing containers...

My personal approach is to run any engine that I'll be storing for a while dry, and preferably drain the tank. Seems to work good so far.

Gooserider

 

[Highbeam]

Goose, so does the ethanol/water mix always settle onto the bottom? Loke straight water does? Perhaps a good strategy is to always dump the last gallon of a 5 gallon can into the truck vs. into the more sensitive engine.

 

[Arlo]

Completely off topic here, but its funny that we all our concerned about ethenal in our gas for our saws but that no one here is aware that if you consume foods with Aspertane in it you are consuming ethanol. Apsertane is 10% Ethol Alcohol or wood grain alcohol. Crazy huh? Sorry for the off topic.

 

[lobsta1]

The problem with phase separation is that it occurs at 1/2 of 1%. In other words, a little over 6/10ths of an ounce of water in one gallon of gas will cause phase separation. Like Goose says, the combined water/alcohol settles at the bottom of the container. It will remain separated even if shaken or more gas or alcohol is added. Since alcohol is also used as an octane booster, the gas that is left is lower in octane.

As far as I know, unless built specifically for higher ethanol, no engine is certified for more than E10. I'm not exactly unbiased on the subject. I had to take up the deck on my boat. Move genny & every thing else out of the way & then take a sawsall to a bulkhead. All this to take out a perfectly good 255 gal. fiberglass fuel tank. Then I had to design a new tank with supporting structure as the metal couldn't really be fabricated into the same shape as the fiberglass tank. After I glassed the cut bulkhead back in, I put everything else back together & finally last spring recaulked the teak deck. Did all the work myself & it ended up costing me about $5000. This was all so I would not have to get in the habit of doing annual rebuilds on the twin 454 engines. (That is if the engines would last for an entire season).

For years I've bought the big bottle of Stabil at Lowes. I buy hi-test for my small engines 5 gal. at a time & automatically stabilize the gas. It doesn't hurt anything & MAY be helpful.
Al

 

[Gooserider]

Goose, so does the ethanol/water mix always settle onto the bottom? Loke straight water does? Perhaps a good strategy is to always dump the last gallon of a 5 gallon can into the truck vs. into the more sensitive engine.

As Lobsta said, the phase separation does settle to the bottom, but it also messes up the octane rating and chemistry of the remaining gas. The other aspect is that unless you have some fairly specialized setup, it's kind of difficult to pour the top off a tank without getting some of the bottom - especially since it isn't a real strong or fast separation - the two won't mix, but you can stir globs of one back in, sort of like a vinegar and oil salad dressing...

I would tend to say that the better strategy is to purchase smaller quantitys of gas at a time, so you feel comfortable that you can use it all up before it starts to separate. If you do think a tank is marginal, dump the whole thing in the truck and buy new, rather than trying to separate the good stuff from the alcohol.


Arlo - as to the Aspartame issue, I know that *I* can't handle the stuff at all - if I have anything with Nutrasweet / Aspartame, I will come down with a blinding headache for about the next 4-5 hours... None of the other artifical sweeteners cause me any problems - Sucralose is fine, Saccharin tends to be nasty tasting, but doesn't cause me any problems, and I've NEVER heard of anyone having problems with cyclamates - we've gotten some smuggled in for us (it's only banned in the US), and I've had no problems with it.

Aspartame containing ETHanol would be no problem, as ethanol is what's in any kind of drinking booze. If it has METHanol which is what many folks call wood alcohol, then that is a major problem as methanol is a cumulative neurotoxin (one of the problems a lot of the biodiesel advocates don't mention is that methanol is one of the major processing ingredients of making biodiesel) However what I have heard is more of an issue w/ Aspartame is that it has a fairly short shelf life, and tends to break down after a few months, especially if heated at all - with one of the major breakdown products being formaldehyde...

Gooserider

 

[Bigg_Redd]

We have no choice in my area. It's all E10.

 

[Arlo]

Goose, so does the ethanol/water mix always settle onto the bottom? Loke straight water does? Perhaps a good strategy is to always dump the last gallon of a 5 gallon can into the truck vs. into the more sensitive engine.

Arlo - as to the Aspartame issue, I know that *I* can't handle the stuff at all - if I have anything with Nutrasweet / Aspartame, I will come down with a blinding headache for about the next 4-5 hours... None of the other artifical sweeteners cause me any problems - Sucralose is fine, Saccharin tends to be nasty tasting, but doesn't cause me any problems, and I've NEVER heard of anyone having problems with cyclamates - we've gotten some smuggled in for us (it's only banned in the US), and I've had no problems with it.

Aspartame containing ETHanol would be no problem, as ethanol is what's in any kind of drinking booze. If it has METHanol which is what many folks call wood alcohol, then that is a major problem as methanol is a cumulative neurotoxin (one of the problems a lot of the biodiesel advocates don't mention is that methanol is one of the major processing ingredients of making biodiesel) However what I have heard is more of an issue w/ Aspartame is that it has a fairly short shelf life, and tends to break down after a few months, especially if heated at all - with one of the major breakdown products being formaldehyde...

Gooserider

Interesting!

 

[atvdave]

It's all E-10 down here in SW Indiana as well, unless you want to run race gas. I just buy my 93 octane at 1 gal at a time so it doesn't set for long periods of time.

I even ran it in my high performance 2 stroke racing ATV and didn't notice any difference than running race fuel. I think it's OK.. just don't let it set for long periods of time.. keep it fresh.