EV vs ICE

[DBoon]

It’s the driving style that instant torque and lots of power encourages.

My experience is that it is the driving style that really kills your tread life on EV tires, much more so than just heavier weight. I went to town on accelerating my Bolt because I could, and once I went through the first set of tires in 25,000 miles or so I learned to lay off the acceleration and my tire life has gotten pretty close to what I would get with a non-EV and a comparable low-rolling resistance tire. I'm sure weight takes some life off as well, but it's more the torque than the weight in my experience.

 

[EbS-P]

My experience is that it is the driving style that really kills your tread life on EV tires, much more so than just heavier weight. I went to town on accelerating my Bolt because I could, and once I went through the first set of tires in 25,000 miles or so I learned to lay off the acceleration and my tire life has gotten pretty close to what I would get with a non-EV and a comparable low-rolling resistance tire. I'm sure weight takes some life off as well, but it's more the torque than the weight in my experience.

Exactly. My first set made it 15k!

 

[DBoon]

Yeah, it's hard not to enjoy the fun until you have to pay the bill for it.

 

[EbS-P]

Yeah, it's hard not to enjoy the fun until you have to pay the bill for it.

I wish I didn’t care. I see big fast cars/suv with Michelin Pilot sport that are near bars and think was that $450 tire worth it?

Id like to try them out sometime. They have a new Pilot EV tire.

 

[stoveliker]

The EV tires are more expensive - precisely to limit the higher wear.

Btw, the behavior argument. The same thing was likely said during the development of cars over the last 125 years.
But each time we got used to faster acceleration (0-60 in how many seconds now, compare that to the cars around when you were 5...). So each time that becomes the new normal.
The same will happen here. When (not if) EVs become majority, the majority of people will take curves faster.
Micro plastic (rubber is a polymer) pollution will go up.

Statistics say ev tires wear 20-30% faster. That's what the average driver does. And that will be the new normal.

 

[EbS-P]

The EV tires are more expensive - precisely to limit the higher wear.

Btw, the behavior argument. The same thing was likely said during the development of cars over the last 125 years.
But each time we got used to faster acceleration (0-60 in how many seconds now, compare that to the cars around when you were 5...). So each time that becomes the new normal.
The same will happen here. When (not if) EVs become majority, the majority of people will take curves faster.
Micro plastic (rubber is a polymer) pollution will go up.

Statistics say ev tires wear 20-30% faster. That's what the average driver does. And that will be the new normal.

I will agree with that. So what we need is slower EVs with a delayed torque ramp. Tesla calls is “chill” mode. I tried it for a month. It limits power to much and has no “kick down “
I don’t like it. I can do the same with my right foot and have all the power I want when I want it.

 

[DBoon]

I can do the same with my right foot and have all the power I want when I want it.

Yes, agreed. But 90%+ of drivers will never make any connection between excessive acceleration and reduced tire wear (or between excessive acceleration and reduced gas mileage), so a torque-reducing mode is probably the right thing for the broad market.

 

[woodgeek]

When folks talk about particulate pollution, I always wonder what the particles are made of. I am not convinced that micro-rubber (and carbon black mixed in) is as bad as diesel PM by a long shot. And I think its biodegradable.

But then I'm not convinced by all the microplastic stuff either. I guess I'm entering my curmudgeon mode.

 

[stoveliker]

Wear and Tear of Tyres: A Stealthy Source of Microplastics in the Environment - PMC

Wear and tear from tyres significantly contributes to the flow of (micro-)plastics into the environment. This paper compiles the fragmented knowledge on tyre wear and tear characteristics, amounts of particles emitted, pathways in the environment, ...

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Car tyres shed a quarter of all microplastics in the environment – urgent action is needed

Every year, billions of vehicles worldwide shed an estimated 6 million tonnes of tyre fragments. These tiny flakes of plastic, generated by the wear and tear of normal driving, eventually accumulate in the soil, in rivers and lakes, and even in our food. Researchers in South China recently found...

www.port.ac.uk

The latter one contain multiple links to other pieces that mention papers.

20-30% larger wear (shedding) of something that is the source of 25% of micro plastics, is significant even if numbers can be debated.

 

[woodgeek]

TIL tire rubber is not biodegradable due to its synthetic content.

 

[begreen]

I will agree with that. So what we need is slower EVs with a delayed torque ramp. Tesla calls is “chill” mode. I tried it for a month. It limits power to much and has no “kick down “
I don’t like it. I can do the same with my right foot and have all the power I want when I want it.

Our car has an ECO mode with a lower acceleration profile that also limits the car to rear motor only. We usually drive in this mode. There are still gobs of acceleration for quick freeway entry, etc., just not neck-breaking.

 

[stoveliker]

We also have an eco mode on our (ICE) Rav4. Of course not "as eco" as for an EV. Then normal, and also a sporty mode.
We always run in the eco mode, and that's perfectly adequate. (And that's "eco-traction" on an ICE rather than an electric instant torque vehicle...)

The appeal or utility of all "modes" is subjective, and depends on what is considered as normal.
If the normal would not shift, we'd be better off (in this particular aspect, in others we'd of course be far worse off).

 

[EbS-P]

We also have an eco mode on our (ICE) Rav4. Of course not "as eco" as for an EV. Then normal, and also a sporty mode.
We always run in the eco mode, and that's perfectly adequate. (And that's "eco-traction" on an ICE rather than an electric instant torque vehicle...)

The appeal or utility of all "modes" is subjective, and depends on what is considered as normal.
If the normal would not shift, we'd be better off (in this particular aspect, in others we'd of course be far worse off).

Most eco modes just choose lower RPM shift points. I doubt any remap throttle position or cut power but they might.

 

[stoveliker]

Most eco modes just choose lower RPM shift points. I doubt any remap throttle position or cut power but they might.

which directly (and negatively) affects the torque that is related to tire wear.

 

[begreen]

Most eco modes just choose lower RPM shift points. I doubt any remap throttle position or cut power but they might.

In ECO mode, the Kia EV6 adjusts the throttle response to be gentler, reduces fan speed, and optimizes performance to increase the vehicle's electric range, helping to maximize energy efficiency. The dash also changes a bit and if one turns on the audio noise it changes with the mode. The range computer (guess-o-meter) also adjusts its calculation according to the mode.

 

[woodgeek]

My Volvo does not HAVE an eco mode. And its a bit of a 6000 lb pig efficiency-wise. My 75 kWh battery only gets me 200 miles at 70-75 mph reliably. My Bolt was more like 225 miles with a 60 kWh battery, but weighed only 4000lbs.

The 'maximizing efficiency game' which I played in earnest with the LEAF (24 kWh battery) and the Bolt, has become little more than an idle amusement 10 years later with Tesla SC stations everywhere along every route, even with the slight downtick in HW range. I also have Google maps built into the vehicle giving me very accurate/conservative range calculations (SoC remaining at destination). No mental math and no 'guess-o-meter'. The end of an EV era.

That said, out of habit in the winter I still crank the seat and wheel heaters, turn the cabin heat down, and put on recirc. The gains from this are minimal (due to the heat pump, no doubt), but I feel I can squeak out another 5 HW miles, maybe, in winter. Not that that makes any difference at all.

 

[EbS-P]

My Volvo does not HAVE an eco mode. And its a bit of a 6000 lb pig efficiency-wise. My 75 kWh battery only gets me 200 miles at 70-75 mph reliably. My Bolt was more like 225 miles with a 60 kWh battery, but weighed only 4000lbs.

The 'maximizing efficiency game' which I played in earnest with the LEAF (24 kWh battery) and the Bolt, has become little more than an idle amusement 10 years later with Tesla SC stations everywhere along every route, even with the slight downtick in HW range. I also have Google maps built into the vehicle giving me very accurate/conservative range calculations (SoC remaining at destination). No mental math and no 'guess-o-meter'. The end of an EV era.

That said, out of habit in the winter I still crank the seat and wheel heaters, turn the cabin heat down, and put on recirc. The gains from this are minimal (due to the heat pump, no doubt), but I feel I can squeak out another 5 HW miles, maybe, in winter. Not that that makes any difference at all.

The EV ownership landscape has changed. But the arguments against EV adoption haven’t.

Range
Cost
the power grid can’t handle the load
it’s not lower emissions than an efficient hybrid

Maybe the excuses will catch up

 

[begreen]

the power grid can’t handle the load

Disproven

it’s not lower emissions than an efficient hybrid

Qualify that please

 

[EbS-P]

Disproven

Qualify that please

Those are just arguments the uninformed make. If your grid was really dirt like South Carolina it might be true. But I don’t wa t to do the math.

 

[begreen]

Got it. Those naysayers also conveniently forget to add the fuel and power costs of extraction, transport, refinement, processing, transport again, and pumping.

 

[semipro]

Just out and related:

Electricity 2026 – Analysis - IEA

Electricity 2026 - Analysis and key findings. A report by the International Energy Agency.

www.iea.org

Electrek piece snippet:
"Global power demand is set to grow by more than 3.5% per year on average through the rest of the decade – far faster than overall energy demand and far quicker than grid expansion in many regions. The growth is being driven by EVs, data centers, and AI, rising industrial electricity use, and something much more basic: more air conditioners running in a warming world."

I assume they list EVs first because that's their focus. That seems a bit to me like blaming bird deaths on wind generators, though.

 

[woodgeek]

Just out and related:

Electricity 2026 – Analysis - IEA

Electricity 2026 - Analysis and key findings. A report by the International Energy Agency.

www.iea.org

Electrek piece snippet:
"Global power demand is set to grow by more than 3.5% per year on average through the rest of the decade – far faster than overall energy demand and far quicker than grid expansion in many regions. The growth is being driven by EVs, data centers, and AI, rising industrial electricity use, and something much more basic: more air conditioners running in a warming world."

I assume they list EVs first because that's their focus. That seems a bit to me like blaming bird deaths on wind generators, though.

Meh. Rising electric demand is good for business. People know how to build new stuff, and to upgrade capacity to existing distributon lines. Much better than a 'flat demand' environment (with 'negawatts') like 2000-2015, where budgets are flat against inflation, and capital replacement of aging equipment is hard to pay for.

Most companies can handle growth of a few percent per year, hardly a management burden.

People assume that the slow moving utilities and decrepit grid equipment we have are fixed and unchanging, but that is an artifact of low demand growth for decades. Infusing new money into the system will change how it works.

 

[EbS-P]

Meh. Rising electric demand is good for business. People know how to build new stuff, and to upgrade capacity to existing distributon lines. Much better than a 'flat demand' environment (with 'negawatts') like 2000-2015, where budgets are flat against inflation, and capital replacement of aging equipment is hard to pay for.

Most companies can handle growth of a few percent per year, hardly a management burden.

People assume that the slow moving utilities and decrepit grid equipment we have are fixed and unchanging, but that is an artifact of low demand growth for decades. Infusing new money into the system will change how it works.

Global average electricity consumption growth is probably misleading. The top 10-15% probably skew that considerably.

are you in favor of more deregulation of electricity generation and transmission?

 

[EbS-P]

Tesla makes top 10 for new car reliability from Consumer reports and is dead last in used (5-10 year old) car reliability. I can atest to how sh!t the 9 and 10 year old Teslas are.
EVs are 80% more problematic over the last 3 years.

Hybrids are the most reliable!

Edit. Rivian #1 in customer satisfaction dead last in reliability!

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[stoveliker]

interesting that Tesla upped their game (reliability of newer ones went up) while EVs in general went down (80% more problematic recently).

And hybrids (i.e. ICE engines) are most reliable - despite the arguments about # of parts in the drivetrain.
Suggests that ICE engines have developed so well over the decades (century...) that they still beat electric motors (despite a similar length of development).
Or (more likely) that most EV design teams had not enough knowledge of car design beyond the engine (see your trouble with suspension etc., not the electric motors).