EV vs ICE

[EbS-P]

Your numbers aren't making sense the difference between hybrid and regular price is not 10k if you are comparing comparable equipt vehicles

RAV4 is plugin hybrid is like 45k. You won’t make that up with gas prices this low. Unless you have solar.

 

[bholler]

Plug ins make zero sense for long highway trips. Which will be 90% of this vehicles usage.
Spent all day yesterday at a local auto show. Didn’t see a decent hybrid suv for under $36k, thats before tax and tags. We’re quoted $30k otd for a well equipped ice.
Even at $5k difference, which you’re not going to see otd, you’re not saving much if any money .
Same as in 2006 when I bought a 36mpg Focus for $14k new otd. Friend bought a Prius, $24k. Math didn’t work. Focus still running original clutch and rear brakes, 170k miles. Her Prius is long gone.
Not even factoring in the human costs of battery production.

And this is ice vs ev debate, please show me a ev that can do 900 miles in 14 hours. Didn’t even bring up towing, what can tow a 2200lb teardrop as far, and fast as my Frontier. We came back from Yellowstone in 4 days, boondocking several times. Solar works on my camper and off grid house. Electric sure can’t do the job towing or traveling.

One of my good friends tows his Airstream all over the country with his ford lightning and loves it. A rav4 hybrid starts around 33k. We get it for you an ev doesn't make sense. If you are regularly driving that far I would agree. But that doesn't mean they dont make sense for anyone. Your comparison between the focus and prius is silly. Priuses regularly go well over 200k miles with no issues. I know one person with over 300k on theirs.

 

[bholler]

RAV4 is plugin hybrid is like 45k. You won’t make that up with gas prices this low. Unless you have solar.

The base price for a rav4 hybrid is a little under 33k non hybrid is a little under 31

 

[EbS-P]

In the Friday afternoon gas line at Costco. Storm in bound so it may be a bit longer than normal but not much. I can’t recall the last time i had wait to fuel up. Stop watch is running! 8.5 minute.
The line is at least 50% full sore trucks and suvs. No wonder EV adoption isn’t great with the size of vehicles we drive.

 

[begreen]

In the Friday afternoon gas line at Costco. Storm in bound so it may be a bit longer than normal but not much. I can’t recall the last time i had wait to fuel up. Stop watch is running! 8.5 minute.
The line is at least 50% full sore trucks and suvs. No wonder EV adoption isn’t great with the size of vehicles we drive.

I just spoke with my sister. She fueled and stocked up yesterday and topped off the propane tank. Unfortunately, her hw heater is outside, which I am told is common down there. I warned not to do this, but her plumber insisted it's how they do it. Now she regrets it.

We have to be prepared for the unexpected weather and earthquakes at any time of the year so lots of redundant systems. Now, with the EV6 and judicious power management, we can power the basics in the house for weeks if required. If we have to drive we can use the van.

 

[begreen]

Our family has never had a Toyota towed. That said my cousin I guess had the block crack on his. I imagine something (and full out guessing here) that 70% of the population lives within 45 minutes of a Toyota dealership.

Yes, I have never had to have a car towed and we have bought lots of new and used vehicles for many decades.

 

[EbS-P]

I warned not to do this, but her plumber insisted it's how they do it. Now she regrets it.

I’m going to get the furthest faucet trickling warm water. More for my supply line that runs in insulated in the vented crawl space. I have a heat strip somewhere.

 

[begreen]

RAV4 is plugin hybrid is like 45k. You won’t make that up with gas prices this low. Unless you have solar.

Local low pricing is not nationwide. The cheapest I have seen in western WA is $3.25 and the same in parts of Calif. It's still close to $5 locally in some rural towns.

 

[EbS-P]

Local low pricing is not nationwide. The cheapest I have seen in western WA is $3.25 and the same in parts of Calif. It's still close to $5 locally in some rural towns.

Yes. CA gas prices have driven more EV adoption. Here is the average US gas price adjusted for inflation.and the same graph for electricity prices. Gas has been quite steady. Electricity has dropped more than I would have guessed. I paid 2.65 today.

 

[bogieb]

Our family has never had a Toyota towed. That said my cousin I guess had the block crack on his. I imagine something (and full out guessing here) that 70% of the population lives within 45 minutes of a Toyota dealership.

After the shelter collapsed onto the 2014 Explorer and put a pole thru the windshield (and dented up the roof - including the moon roof), I couldn't legally drive it anywhere. Plus, it was in the negative temps so wouldn't have wanted to drive it myself to the local shop anyway

Had a Toyota 4Runner with a cracked block way back in the 90s. It was at about 250k at the time.

 

[DBoon]

My first EV road trip (the 100 miles from Philly to NYC) in 2014, there were a total of 3 DCFC stalls along the route (the busiest part of I-95 BTW). And they are all 24 kW or lower power, versus to 150 kW minimum nowadays. What a difference 10 years makes.

In 2020, driving from Central NY to Northern Virginia down I-81 to 15 was a charging desert. I recall driving the last 50 miles to Harrisburg at something like 50 miles/per hour to reach a fast charger to find out it didn't work and having to park in Gettysburg to slow charge until I got enough to get to a DCFC in Leesburg, VA. Now there are absolutely no issues - huge amount of chargers to pick from spaced out really well with 4-8 stalls per DCFC station and it's been a long time since one "didn't work".

So, the range anxiety issue is technically solved (in most places) but the inconvenience factor and confusion (for many people) of fast charging is the next hurdle to solve. I give it 10 more years before every DCFC can be thought of as no more confusing than a gas pump for any driver. We are seeing the start of this with newer networks where the car identifies itself to the DCFC and then the turn on and transaction with the DCFC is frictionless (at least in theory). That would be pretty much where Tesla probably was more than 5 years ago.

 

[DBoon]

And this is ice vs ev debate, please show me a ev that can do 900 miles in 14 hours. Didn’t even bring up towing, what can tow a 2200lb teardrop as far, and fast as my Frontier. We came back from Yellowstone in 4 days, boondocking several times. Solar works on my camper and off grid house. Electric sure can’t do the job towing or traveling.

For sure, BEVs are not really going to work (yet) in the use case you outline. As battery costs continue to fall and charging gets faster, the crossover point might be 10 years out, could be 15. If you were just road tripping with the vehicle, DCFC will never be much cheaper than gas or diesel, but fillup times might get pretty close.

 

[DBoon]

Not even factoring in the human costs of battery production.

I think a pretty easy case can be made that the human costs of oil extraction and refinement are easily worse than battery production, not to mention the endless series of wars that have been fought to maintain access to oil supplies. Battery materials can (and are) recycled, so once mined and refined the eco footprint is much reduced. Having said that, I won't defend some of the horror stories described for cobalt mining in the Congo (though cobalt-rich battery chemistries are declining in market share). Nothing is perfect. Some things are a lot less perfect than others.

 

[stoveliker]

I think that the use case of @old greybeard will make very little sense. Imagine the weight of that vehicle when it has enough batteries to do what he needs to do.

I also think that some thought should be given that the much higher rubber particle production of (heavy) EVs. Tires are big sources of micro particles.

That said, I do think my next car will be (at least) a plug in hybrid.
But I drive my cars until they die, so I hope that's a while away.

 

[EbS-P]

DCFC will never be much cheaper than gas or diesel, but fillup times might get pretty close.

We could increase the taxes to pay for new and better roads and bridges.

 

[EbS-P]

I also think that some thought should be given that the much higher rubber particle production of (heavy) EVs. Tires are big sources of micro particles.

I don’t think as big of an issue. The issue is not EV but who drives powerful cars and how they are driven. Put a model 3/Y in chill limited to the acceleration of 4 cylinder Toyota or Honda and tire will last The warranty of the tire.

 

[stoveliker]

Even michelin says it is.
Weight matters.

 

[stoveliker]

This is a piece by the acs

Tire makers strive to fix their electric car problem

Chemical & Engineering News (C&EN): Keeping you up to date with the chemistry news that matters most. Published by the American Chemical Society.

cen.acs.org

 

[begreen]

It's an issue for any car or truck and has been for a long time. Anti-gravity cars can't come soon enough.

 

[EbS-P]

Yes weight matter but like for like AWD 500 pounds difference in weight does not account for the tire wear differences observed. It’s the driving style that instant torque and lots of power encourages.

 

[stoveliker]

The bigger the vehicle the more the added weight of the larger batteries.
And note the "no coasting" issue discussed.

The point is that it's not only torque, it's also the weight and the coasting thing. The weight difference is significant, and it's effect is large especially in curves.

 

[EbS-P]

And note the "no coasting" issue discussed.

I can totally coast. There is a neutral position on the throttle. Your foot finds it.

 

[woodgeek]

So, the range anxiety issue is technically solved (in most places) but the inconvenience factor and confusion (for many people) of fast charging is the next hurdle to solve. I give it 10 more years before every DCFC can be thought of as no more confusing than a gas pump for any driver. We are seeing the start of this with newer networks where the car identifies itself to the DCFC and then the turn on and transaction with the DCFC is frictionless (at least in theory). That would be pretty much where Tesla probably was more than 5 years ago.

I got my latest EV in July and have roadtripped plenty, and have never fast charged it on anything other than a Tesla SC. The app works for me the same as it does for a Tesla owner. Buy a dongle and you are there today.

I have had several Tesla owners ask me about my vehicle and compliment it.

 

[begreen]

I got my latest EV in July and have roadtripped plenty, and have never fast charged it on anything other than a Tesla SC. The app works for me the same as it does for a Tesla owner. Buy a dongle and you are there today.

I have had several Tesla owners ask me about my vehicle and compliment it.

I'm considering a used Polestar 2 when our lease is up in August for the V2L feature.

 

[EbS-P]

I got my latest EV in July and have roadtripped plenty, and have never fast charged it on anything other than a Tesla SC. The app works for me the same as it does for a Tesla owner. Buy a dongle and you are there today.

I have had several Tesla owners ask me about my vehicle and compliment it.

App— Ha— I don’t even use an app to charge! As long as you have the fob no phone needed.