Experience with Vermont Castings Montpelier?

[rbh29]

Hi. I'm new to this forum and had a VC Mont. insert recently installed. We really like the look of the unit but aren't too impressed with the performance so far. I'm hoping someone with more experience can help me.

Actually, this is the 2nd insert because the first one had a defective blower and did not draft well. After several visits and much consultation, the dealer decided to replace it.

Some background: We live in southeasterm MA. Our house has 2 stories, 2,000 sq. ft. living area with a central chimney provided with a full length, stainless steel liner. The insert is on the first floor. One of the dealer's tech. reps. evaluated my fire building skills and said they are good. He also did a moisture test on the wood supply and it is within acceptable limits (12-18% moisture content).

My questions:

1) The blower hums, rattles and buzzes. Is this normal? It sounds like it has a bad bearing to me.

2) The airflow path for the forced air convection is fairly obvious. Does anyone know how the combustion air and secondary air work? The dealer doesn't seem to be able to explain it (at least in a way that makes sense to me) nor provide an airflow diagram. I contacted VC but received no response.

3) The owner's manual states that the face of the fireplace opening should be sealed from the room. It's a code issue. The dealer says they never do that. If it's sealed, how does the combustion air get in?

4) I've not yet seen any blue flames from the secondary combustion tubes. How hot of a fire is needed?

5) I don't have a thermometer but may need to get one. Any recommendations?

6) There is no insulated block off plate at the damper area. Should the dealer have installed one? It seems like that would help with the blue flame issue.

I hope I'll be more satisfied with this unit with any advice anyone can provide and with more experience on my part. Thanks for taking the time to read this.

 

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

There is a 10-page thread on the VC Montpelier in this forum. Just run a search for it. It is a long read, but may be worthwhile for you. The Montpelier is new to the market and seemed to have a few bugs. Other common problems seem to be related to wet wood/poor draft.

I gather that a block off plate is worthwhile if you have an exterior chimney. Otherwise a good seal at the top of the chimney should hold warm air in which will eventually warm the liner and maintain a draft.

We have a Montpelier in a similar house. 2,000 sq. ft., two story. It manages so-so in near zero temps. In the living room, temperatures can reach mid 70's. Family room/kitchen on the far side of the main floor run temps in the high 60s, while the upstairs bedrooms have temps in the low 60s.

I have hot water baseboard heat with the pipes running through the exterior walls of a 50+year old house. For that reason I keep the thermostat set at 69*. When the temperature drops below that the boiler kicks in and will run water through the pipes.

We also live on the southeast end of a large school playground, so if there's a northwesterly breeze we get the full brunt of it.

To answer some of your questions:

1 Noisy blowers are part-n-parcel with inserts. However some noise is due to loose parts. I wedged a wad of paper between the grate and the fan and that quieted most of the rattle. Some folks solved it by tightening the mounting screws.

2 I'm curious about the combustion air path also. In particular I'd like to know exactly where the air comes in because I'd like to seal it off from the room. My fireplace has an ash-clean out that leads directly outside. I'd rather my insert get its air through that than sending heated room air up the flue.

3 I have my opening fairly well sealed. Instead of the commercially available surrounds I made a sheet-steel surround flush-fit to the inside opening. I sealed the edge of the surround to the stone with black RTV silicon. After turning off the fan, I've held a lit match in front of the blower grate and it drew the flame in. So even though the surround is sealed to the opening, the combustion air can still be drawn in through the blower grate. I also get a really strong draft at the ash clean out door, but that draft is present whether I am burning or not, so I have no clue how much of the combustion air is supplied through the ash cleanout.

4 I have seen some blue-ish flames. Usually it is late in the burn when the wood has just about completely turned to coal. I haven't been too concerned about the color of the flame. Generally, if your glass is staying clean, and you're getting plenty of heat things are working.

5 I have a thermometer from a previous house. It's pretty much useless on an insert. I just watch and make sure there's not too much glowing metal. A red spot on the secondary tubes isn't a big deal - especially when the firebox is full and there's a piece of glowing coal real close.

 

[EatenByLimestone]

Also review the VC warranty issues. When you make a big purchase you should be aware of them.

Matt

 

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

What warranty issues are you referring to?

 

[begreen]

My questions:

1) The blower hums, rattles and buzzes. Is this normal? It sounds like it has a bad bearing to me.
Get the dealer out again for this. Sometimes the fix is as easy as isolating the vibrating part. It also could be an out of balance fan which will show up with the fan removed from the stove. Run it freestanding. If it vibrates badly, it needs to be replaced.

2) The airflow path for the forced air convection is fairly obvious. Does anyone know how the combustion air and secondary air work? The dealer doesn't seem to be able to explain it (at least in a way that makes sense to me) nor provide an airflow diagram. I contacted VC but received no response. I don't know on this one, but it's a good question. The insert looks to be of conventional burntube design. If so, one is most likely varying the primary air with the control. Secondary air is always present.

3) The owner's manual states that the face of the fireplace opening should be sealed from the room. It's a code issue. The dealer says they never do that. If it's sealed, how does the combustion air get in? I believe a tight seal is for the direct connect (short stub up the chimney). It is not necessary for a full liner.

4) I've not yet seen any blue flames from the secondary combustion tubes. How hot of a fire is needed?
secondary combustion usually starts at about 400 °F on the stovetop. This could also be the wood, try adding some carpentry scraps or store bought wood to the mix and see if it burns hotter or give the fire more air for a longer period of time.

5) I don't have a thermometer but may need to get one. Any recommendations?
Most all are cheap. Condar still makes fairly decent ones. I got a Chinese made Drolet at True Value for a friend and remarkably, it has turned out to be reasonably accurate, but no guarantees here.

6) There is no insulated block off plate at the damper area. Should the dealer have installed one? It seems like that would help with the blue flame issue.
Is this an interior or exterior chimney? If exterior, the block-off plate will can make a considerable difference in retained heat. But you should still be able to get a nice hot fire in the insert with good wood. The flame will not always be blue, certainly not solid blue. It also depends on the species of wood being burnt.

One thing you could try is to lower the blower speed all the way. The blower cools down the firebox considerably.

 

[EatenByLimestone]

Here is a start to your research. There are more examples you'll only need a search to find.

https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/21555/



Matt

 

[rbh29]

Thanks to all for your insights and advice.

I'll contact the dealer again about the noisy blower. When it comes on at night it sounds like an alarm clock and wakes me up. I sleep on the 2nd floor! I'll also ask him to point out the airflow pathways on their floor model. He didn't seem 100% positive about it before. He said this is their most popular wood insert model and have installed 30 units with no problems. I'll also try carpentry scraps to see if I can get the blue flames.

Happy New Year too!

 

[pricestavern]

Thought I'd add our experience to date. We live on Long Island, NY and we've had the Montpelier for about a month now and our learning all the time. We use it as a heat supplement, not a primary source.

Smoke: There are a number of posts about smoke problems. When we lit our first fire we had smoke pouring out from all around the insert into the room. Naturally, we freaked! But we've learned it was us and not the insert. !) When it's really cold and windy you need to pre-heat the flue. We light 3 pieces of fatwood and hold it up to the top of the insert to heat it. 2) To actually start the fire, a small pile of wood pellets and gelled fuel works the best, though very dry kindling is also OK. NO PAPER! Start the fire against the back wall.

Heat: In our cabin in NH we have a small wood stove that cranks out ridiculous heat with practically no wood. The VC Montpelier does not compare. That being said, it's not a fair comparison. 1) the NH stove has no glass and is a free standing stove. The VC insert is just that - an insert; and one with alot of glass. It will not work as efficiently as a wood stove or an insert with little or no glass, but then you don't get the ambiance as you do with the Montpelier. After all, that's why you buy it, isn't it? It's beautiful. We do get a reasonable amout of heat from our Montpelier, all things considered. It just takes more wood.

Wood: Not much to say at this point. We've started with a 1/4 cord of kiln dried mixed hardwood and are going to purchase 2 cords of oak to season for next year.

Blower Rattle: Ours rattled, too. We stuffed a wad of fiberglass insulation underneath it and that worked. The blower itself is a bit noisy, but you get used to it. From all the posts, this seems to be a constant with all blowers.

We'll post more as we go forward, but at this point we are very satisfied.

 

[rbh29]

Thanks, Pricestavern,

Your'e right, I don't think the Montpelier would serve as a primary heat source, at least in our house but our furnace doesn't come on as much. I did get the secondary burner to light with the firebox full of wood. The flames were yellow, not blue, and were intermittent.

I'm more satisfied with it as I get more experience. It's definitely more finicky than a conventional wood burning stove but it looks great and doesn't take up as much space. The blower doesn't rattle as much as it used to. Maybe it needed a break-in period.

 

[dkuhns]

How noisy are the fans on the Montpelier?

Can someone compare them to say a bathroom fan, range fan, or window fan?

Thanks for the help.

 

[allhandsworking]

How noisy are the fans on the Montpelier?

Can someone compare them to say a bathroom fan, range fan, or window fan?

Thanks for the help.

At full speed less than bathroom fan. If you here buzz wedge some fiberglass insulation under sheetmetal were fan is it will quit it down! I have 1800 ft home good insulation old windows. living room avarage 74 upstairs 68 I only burned 250 gal oil this year! burned wood every night and when home during day. Burned about 2 1/2 cords! The Montpelier is great! My wife loves the looks!

 

[FriedInTahoe]

I purchased a Vermont Castings Montpelier in Dec. 08; installed in 80 year old cabin near Lake Tahoe. It became quickly obvious that it has a major flaw; always insufficient draft. Hard to start fires unless you leave door open. When you shut door, fire tends to go out. Complained to dealer I bought it from. He finally came out and added two feet to the steel vent once it exits the stone chimney. This made barely perceptible difference.
Initially I was burning cedar; probably not good idea from standpoint of sooting up door. Now burning mostly well aged white fir- trash tree abundantly available around here due to bark beetle kill. I now get less sooting, but sooting of door is an issue if you shut damper, even less than fully shut.
Vermont castings is USELESS at helping consumer; they refer all problems to dealer. The dealer mostly sells gas inserts/stoves and seems less experienced with wood. Finally, after over two years of putting up with poor performance, I called dealer again and they reported just having talked with Vermont Castings rep at trade show. Rep asked if they had any complaints about draft in Montpelier? Yes, two of two customers! Problem is bad design of three air holes in base of unit which are covered with piece of firebrick. The dealer came out and installed washers to raise firebrick to allow more air into stove and it finally seems to work much better. This is a vacation home; have only been able to evaluate one night since "repair". No longer does fire die down when door closed on insert. Still somewhat easier to get fire started with door open. The Montpelier manual on page 13 discusses these three holes, and keeping ashes out of them, but the picture is inaccurate or older design. It is available from Vermont Castings factory website. Why block holes up by putting firebrick on top of them?
I really, really regret purchasing this unit. I bought it because it has about the biggest door opening on an insert available. Another dealer tried to steer me from Vermont Castings brand to a Lopi insert, but it had far smaller "window" to see fire. I wish I had listened to the guy who steered me towards a different product!!

 

[allhandsworking]

I just started a fire in my monty and put gloves on and put some washers under the fire brick! I will post my results,makes sense!

 

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

I don't understand the idea with the washers. Are you putting them under the brick, that is between the metal plate and the brick? When I look at my Monte the front brick won't inhibit airflow at all. Rather, the air intake is located underneath a metal plate which is under that brick.

Remove the brick and find the 3 screws that hold down that metal plate. Remove the screws and plate and you'll see little grooves cast into the stove body that direct the combustion air towards the holes in the brick. If those grooves are getting clogged with ash you've got problems.

I would imagine that washers placed to hold up this metal plate would increase airflow. However, on my Monte I think I have the opposite problem. I wish I could choke it down more to conserve on wood. But I've got a 25-foot chimney exposed to wind so I have a strong draft.

 

[Fod01]

I just started a fire in my monty and put gloves on and put some washers under the fire brick! I will post my results,makes sense!

This is a bad time of year to be experimenting. I stopped burning because its fairly mild (plus I've only got some under-seasoned red oak left). The stove will still draft well, but only you have to keep it wide-open for a longer period. During the really cold months, it drafts like a charm.

Just my $.02
Gabe

 

[lindyhistory]

FriendinTahoe and Allhandsworking,
What did you guys eventually do with the washers under the front bricks? My glass gets cloudy/dirty no unless I leave the damper totally open. When I lower it for the night it gets so black I need to wipe with Rutlands 84 for a while or use a razor blade. Any info you can give would be appreciated.
Thanks

 

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

CC,

I responded in the other thread on Monte's too. First off - as everyone who has been around EPA stoves for a while will ask - "How long has your wood been drying and what kind of wood is it?"

Oak takes two years to dry sufficiently. That's a lot of patience for a beginner burner. And quite difficult to get a woodstove and stock up a two-year supply while you're burning. But damp wood is probably 99% of the reasons for darkened glass in just about all these woodstoves.

Next - how's that connection between the liner pipe and the flue collar?

 

[lindyhistory]

Black Jacque,
I received 3 deliveries this summer from tree companies that said the wood was sitting since last winter. I purchased a wood moisture gauge and on all the pieces I tested the moisture was approx 18%. The gauge had 4 prongs. It was not easy to get the prongs deep into the wood. I would have to say that most of the wood is oak. I live on Long Island and oaks are everywhere.
I was hoping that the answer would not be seasoned wood but I guess it is. It isn't going to be easy to get 2 years ahead on a 1/4 acre but if I want a better burn and clear glass I guess that is what I will do.
THanks,
Chris

 

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

CC,

Yes wood storage is often not considered when someone gets into heating with wood.

18% moisture should be excellent - Did you split the wood then test the fresh-split surface? Or did you test the seasoned surface?

I own a Monte and I know that wet wood will definitely smoke up the glass. However I also know that there are ways to cheat on that 2-year curing time if you cut your own wood. I'm still working up to that point where all my wood has been sitting for two years, but what I've been doing is trying to seek out trees that have been standing dead for some years in the forest. Sometimes the top 1/3 is dry enough to burn right away and the lower portions need at least one year of drying time. Burning this way I only get smoke on the bottom inch or two of the glass - which with the Monte is not a problem since there is so much viewing surface to spare.

After a while I've gotten good at feeling the damp pieces just by the heft. So if a chunk of wood feels too heavy I'll toss it aside.

I recommend you sort through your wood or go far and wide in search of some truly dry wood to get enough to burn an entire box-full of real dry wood (18% on a freshly split surface). If the problem remains with dry wood - then look for other causes - poor draft being the next thing I'd investigate.

 

[Fod01]

It isn't going to be easy to get 2 years ahead on a 1/4 acre but if I want a better burn and clear glass I guess that is what I will do.

2 years is rough on 1/4 acre. We're in the same situation. What I do have is 2 cord of mixed hardwoods that have been stacked for a month or so for next year.

Ive already started scrounging for the following year, and have some oak I need to buck and split. In a month or so, I'll have burned enough to have room for the new stacks.

Gabe

 

[Jack768]

It may help to get it really hot -- roaring -- for a while before you start closing it down. This will improve draft a lot and give you a solid bed of heat-emitting coals to evap the moisture in the wood. May also need, after that, to leave the air control open slightly rather than a full close-down.

 

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

It isn’t going to be easy to get 2 years ahead on a 1/4 acre but if I want a better burn and clear glass I guess that is what I will do.

If I understand your situation it sounds like you buy your wood cut & split from a supplier. This supplier claims the wood is 1 year old. So if you can stick with this supplier you should be able to stay just one year ahead since you buy it already a year old.

If I had a tough time with storage of the wood supply I guess I would go vertical. Of course this would take more care and perhaps a more expensive woodshed because you don't want a 10-foot tall stack of wood coming down on you or anyone else.

But if you burn 5 cord a year that's 640 cubic feet. So if you could build the shed to accomodate a 10-foot tall stack of wood you could squeeze a whole year's worth in 8 x 8 floor space. Of course you'd need a ladder to get to the top - think of it this way though you might take up less space with dry wood than with wet because you'll burn less.

 

[Ben Brenner]

Thought I'd add our experience to date. We live on Long Island, NY and we've had the Montpelier for about a month now and our learning all the time. We use it as a heat supplement, not a primary source.

Smoke: There are a number of posts about smoke problems. When we lit our first fire we had smoke pouring out from all around the insert into the room. Naturally, we freaked! But we've learned it was us and not the insert. !) When it's really cold and windy you need to pre-heat the flue. We light 3 pieces of fatwood and hold it up to the top of the insert to heat it. 2) To actually start the fire, a small pile of wood pellets and gelled fuel works the best, though very dry kindling is also OK. NO PAPER! Start the fire against the back wall.

Heat: In our cabin in NH we have a small wood stove that cranks out ridiculous heat with practically no wood. The VC Montpelier does not compare. That being said, it's not a fair comparison. 1) the NH stove has no glass and is a free standing stove. The VC insert is just that - an insert; and one with alot of glass. It will not work as efficiently as a wood stove or an insert with little or no glass, but then you don't get the ambiance as you do with the Montpelier. After all, that's why you buy it, isn't it? It's beautiful. We do get a reasonable amout of heat from our Montpelier, all things considered. It just takes more wood.

Wood: Not much to say at this point. We've started with a 1/4 cord of kiln dried mixed hardwood and are going to purchase 2 cords of oak to season for next year.

Blower Rattle: Ours rattled, too. We stuffed a wad of fiberglass insulation underneath it and that worked. The blower itself is a bit noisy, but you get used to it. From all the posts, this seems to be a constant with all blowers.

We'll post more as we go forward, but at this point we are very satisfied.

Hi Prince,

Regarding stuffing the insullation under the fan. Is that still working for you? Are you wrapping up over the motor? Exactly how much insulation are you using; it looks pretty tight b/w the base and motor. Thanks

 

[pen]

Hi Prince,

Regarding stuffing the insullation under the fan. Is that still working for you? Are you wrapping up over the motor? Exactly how much insulation are you using; it looks pretty tight b/w the base and motor. Thanks

The guy you are quoting hasn't logged-on in almost 4 years. If you don't get a response don't be afraid to make a new thread explaining what you have going on.

Welcome to the site!

pen