Fireplace chimney making banging noise in wind gusts

[skyM]

Can you roughly determine the location of the sound? Is it up high toward the roof or down low, close to the fireplace?

It is 100% coming from the elbow area, but there's no residual sounds - just one bang, no rattling, no squeaking. I know it sounds weird, but the sound pattern is similar to hitting a nail with the hammer, just travels "down".

 

[stoveliker]

Then I wonder if there is some torsion tension on the flex pieces at the elbow, leading to seams jumping position depending on wind or other pressures?
When the drywall is off, can you move things by hand and recreate the sound (though it'll be damped b/c of your hands touching the metal)?

 

[skyM]

Then I wonder if there is some torsion tension on the flex pieces at the elbow, leading to seems jumping position depending on wind or other pressures?
When the drywall is off, can you move things by hand and recreate the sound (though it'll be damped b/c of your hands touching the metal)?

That's the plan. There's a walk-in closet on the right, so I'll be removing the whole back piece to give me a full view and will setup a nest cam in there. Thanks to this discussion I just got a solid lead. Pulled up wind database from (broken link removed) and compared it to the times I heard banging yesterday. I need a NW gust at 28mph or higher to get the bang. Once I get the NEST cam setup I'll compare bangs it records to gusts. Will give me speed/direction that sets off the sound.

 

[begreen]

I'm wondering if the top of the fireplace is "oilcanning" causing the bangs.

 

[skyM]

I'm wondering if the top of the fireplace is "oilcanning" causing the bangs.

That makes sense!! There wouldn't be a residual sound if it's just convex bump popping in and out. Darn, this is getting interesting. Thank you!

 

[skyM]

Then I wonder if there is some torsion tension on the flex pieces at the elbow, leading to seams jumping position depending on wind or other pressures?
When the drywall is off, can you move things by hand and recreate the sound (though it'll be damped b/c of your hands touching the metal)?

So, I opened up the drywall. Except for a bit of a dust build-up everything is exactly the same as the day it was closed up. I was not able to recreate the noise. The closest thing to it I was able to produce is push into the side of the firebox, and it did give the "oilcanning" effect begreen mentioned but there's nothing between them and closet wall to the right and neighboring chimney to the left. I did vape up some smoke, there's airflow but no drafts.

Now it's just a waiting game with a nest cam for a decent wind gust.

Note to self: must do much s***tier job with corner tape and be stingy with joint compound. Was fused under, over and all around... That drywall did not come down in one piece :/

 

[skyM]

I suppose we can mark this one as solved. 100% bad install.

Opened up the drywall. The offset and return were not secured with screws. Offset is actually separating from the lower chimney section bead. Manufacturer spent 4 pages warning fire risk and even provided screws and drill holes for the elbow. I don't know what the installer's excuse was.

The actual problem I think is with the top section. Winds have been very calm, but when approaching 20mph gusts I get this noise:

To view this content we will need your consent to set third party cookies.
For more detailed information, see our cookies page.

Accept third party cookies

Installer did sleeve new pipe though the old chimney, just found out about it last Saturday, so I'd be curious to know how the gap between them was sealed and how the new chimney is supported. I wish I was able to go up on the roof, but I don't have that option.

I guess as a homeowner I'm 100% screwed. The ball is in installer's court to make this right - coming out this Friday. Walls coming down is the least of my problems right now - could have burned mine and my neighbor's condos down.

 

[stoveliker]

Glad you were persistent and found the cause. Glad because it'll make you safer.
Well-done!

Good luck in dealing with the installer to fix it! Keep us updated on how that goes.

 

[skyM]

Glad you were persistent and found the cause. Glad because it'll make you safer.
Well-done!

Good luck in dealing with the installer to fix it! Keep us updated on how that goes.

Honestly, if I didn't have to work 12 hour days / 7 days a week I could have figured it out sooner. But they poked a bear - gave me a HUGE run-around getting me their COI and license, I finally got pissed off enough to read the install manual. If noob like me can find these HUGE issues, I can only imagine what else is there.

 

[stoveliker]

If that is how you feel, it might be worth asking another (properly credentialed) person to inspect the flue. Otherwise you may always have this nagging feeling of unease when you burn. And when you the finally ask for another inspection, you'll have to open the walls again. So better do it right, now.

Just a thought.

 

[skyM]

If that is how you feel, it might be worth asking another (properly credentialed) person to inspect the flue. Otherwise you may always have this nagging feeling of unease when you burn. And when you the finally ask for another inspection, you'll have to open the walls again. So better do it right, now.

Just a thought.

That is very good advice. Thank you!

 

[clancey]

So glad you found that and now for the flue inspection and so glad you are persistent for this sounds and reads real dangerous....good for you....A good days work in regard to confidence and safety...keep us posted for I am curious to know what another inspection "now" will bring to surface about the issue...Before I light any fire in my new wood stove I am going to take pictures of everything that I can and ask if it is safe from this forum...lol...Going to be new at this....clancey.

 

[skyM]

So glad you found that and now for the flue inspection and so glad you are persistent for this sounds and reads real dangerous....good for you....A good days work in regard to confidence and safety...keep us posted for I am curious to know what another inspection "now" will bring to surface about the issue...Before I light any fire in my new wood stove I am going to take pictures of everything that I can and ask if it is safe from this forum...lol...Going to be new at this....clancey.

Thank you. I'm knowledgeable DIYer (had training in construction, plumbing, electric, etc), but this is my first home with a fireplace and first fireplace install. I crossed all the t's and dotted all the i's. And to be honest, this installer was not the lowest bid either (sourced 4 quotes). The install experience itself from start to finish was pristine and I was happy.... Until 8 months later I found out that yes, you need to read every WORD in a manual (stared at open drywall/flue for a week without knowing what was wrong until I studied the install manual). Second set of professional eyes on this is the way to go. I will source one from the manufacturer. Finally the installer is owning up to the fault, but it took persistence and run-around to get them to this point. Take photos of EVERYTHING and read EVERYTHING!

 

[clancey]

Thanks and I will...clancey

 

[begreen]

I'm sorry that it took you to find the problem, this is unconscionable. The installer has some serious liability exposure here. Lay it on them. How do you know they didn't cheat on other important safety details? They need to make this right and pay for the resealing of the walls.

 

[skyM]

I'm sorry that it took you to find the problem, this is unconscionable. The installer has some serious liability exposure here. Lay it on them. How do you know they didn't cheat on other important safety details? They need to make this right and pay for the resealing of the walls.

Oh, I'm still fuming... after pressing the issue of not using the screws to secure offset/return, vague replies, and *much run-around this is the final email I got from the guy who did the actual installation at 5:19EST. I've taken out the PID, but in all honesty I cannot understand how any legitimate business can operate this way and throw some poor schmuck under the bus while they're at it. Certainly MANY questions regarding firestop photo they've provided (attached). Saga is not over yet. Getting a 3rd party inspector after they're done for sure. I don't even know how to respond to this.......

Tatyana,

I fully understand your concerns and please understand that we take this situation very seriously, we aim for a happy customer and complete installation with safety in mind at every level!

Between ******** and myself installing this fireplace we missed this very important aspect of the installation and it is very important it gets resolved.

It was discovered that ******** had made several other mistakes when doing install projects and after resolving the ones we caught he was let go, but I was there too and trust me, I am very disappointed in myself for not identifying this before. I sincerely apologize for my lack of attentiveness.

As to your other point, the piece of pipe we left of your old fireplace was the chase flashing that covers the roof, and to remove that would require us to reflash all of the chimneys pipes terminating through your chase. That was never floated as an option as a practical solution. The cost and difficulty would have been staggering and would have affected your neighbor's flue too. Normal procedure is to use the existing hole and use the storm collar as a flashing to seal the gap.

That said, I have attached all of the pictures ******** took while on the roof and one from inside showing this sleeveing method, to what I at the time believed to be properly.

I recall explaining to ******** that he needed to secure the new pipe that was run through the old pipe with screws to center and anchor the new flue (like on a christmas tree stand) and strap it as well.

While he took no pictures of the anchoring process, you can see the strapping in images 3 & 5 near the bottom.

As I mentioned before, I feared that ******** hadn't screwed anchors to the pipe may be the cause of the banging and will reinforce that practice with ********.

These pictures should answer your remaining questions and if not, we will need to wait for ******** to take more pictures while he is there.

Respectfully,
******************

 

[begreen]

"The buck stops here" comes to mind while reading this.

 

[skyM]

"The buck stops here" comes to mind while reading this.

Oh, the buck is not moving anywhere as long as fireplace is not in use. For sure

 

[kborndale]

Have you paid them in full yet? If you have I would dispute the charge on your credit card until everything is completed correctly.

 

[skyM]

Last update (or what I hope to be) on the subject.
New crew was sent in by the installer on Friday - they were skilled and professional: fixed bad flue section install at the top and separating elbow securing everything according to manufacturer's specifications. Today I had an inspection performed by non-profit fire official to ensure everything is done well and to code: no faults identified. Doesn't mean that everything is perfect - means it's okay for now. I've decided instead of closing up the space with insulation/drywall, I'll be putting in a trap door in there: while I've taken every possible precaution, for a peace of mind this will be a good feature to have that will make firebox/flue accessible at any time without demo in the future.

Lessons learned:

1. Just because the installer been in business for a long time, licensed, insured, NOT the lowest bid and has fair amount of good online reviews doesn't mean that some incompetent joe schmo won't be doing your actual install. Dealers are also not too eager to alert their customers to potential faults - they will wash their hands off you as soon as you settle your bill.
2. Study the installation manual WAY before the job that way as a homeowner you're in a better position to see red flags during the install.
3. Value your safety? Learn who https://www.csia.org/ are, who they certify and what makes them different. If you commit to the company for install, ensure that at least one of their employees has sweep certification so that they can maintain your chimney for cleanings and firebox for any issues in a future. Super reputable installers won't touch other people's work. And that's when you really find yourself between the rock and a hard place - your joe schmo may be the one you're stuck with as long as you have the setup.
4. If your installer screws up, you're on your own. Manufacturer won't touch this, and there's no shortage of competitor "authorized" dealers who won't hesitate to take your hard earned $$$ to tell you what original installer did wrong (whether it has merit or not). Pray that CSIA certified sweep will take you on and be happy to pay the premium price tag. It's worth it.

I hope that this post will help someone too. No one should ever go through what I did, but it does happen. Thanks to everyone who gave me good advice on here. This was HUGE help in my situation. You guys are the best.

 

[clancey]

I think your pretty nice too and smart too and I sure hope my installer who is coming to install after the weather gets better does a good job and I will not have to go through what you went through---but good for you and Yes the buck did stop there with you...Thanks..clancey

 

[begreen]

I'm glad this is a wrap. Good on you on not saying "good enough" or too much hassle, which many people do. You (and we) will sleep better now.

 

[skyM]

After 2 service visits the noise in mild wind gusts (25mph) is no longer a bang, but a train wreck sound like this: https://video.nest.com/clip/9f8703d20235452188a9f6d6fc6a0ec8.mp4
The installer is now blaming the cap, and reached out to the manufacturer to see if they make a wind proof one. They don't, it's not in their catalog, and I'm convinced the problem initially originated from nothing but tension holding offset/return/flue sections together. I'm unable to go up on the roof, and requested photos of how the gap between old and new flue was secured at the roof entry. They're attached. Guys, can you please offer some feedback? Anchoring the top section with drywall/metal screws through thin sheet of old pipe pinning the new pipe seems like a disaster waiting to happen. I expected to see a bracket, a clamp, a pipe adapter.. I'm no expert on wind loads or steel erosion in elements, but does this seem like a legit installation? Photos attached. Thanks in advance!!

 

[Sailrmike]

After 2 service visits the noise in mild wind gusts (25mph) is no longer a bang, but a train wreck sound like this: https://video.nest.com/clip/9f8703d20235452188a9f6d6fc6a0ec8.mp4
The installer is now blaming the cap, and reached out to the manufacturer to see if they make a wind proof one. They don't, it's not in their catalog, and I'm convinced the problem initially originated from nothing but tension holding offset/return/flue sections together. I'm unable to go up on the roof, and requested photos of how the gap between old and new flue was secured at the roof entry. They're attached. Guys, can you please offer some feedback? Anchoring the top section with drywall/metal screws through thin sheet of old pipe pinning the new pipe seems like a disaster waiting to happen. I expected to see a bracket, a clamp, a pipe adapter.. I'm no expert on wind loads or steel erosion in elements, but does this seem like a legit installation? Photos attached. Thanks in advance!!

View attachment 278240 View attachment 278241

That's a horrible sound.

 

[gthomas785]

After 2 service visits the noise in mild wind gusts (25mph) is no longer a bang, but a train wreck sound like this: https://video.nest.com/clip/9f8703d20235452188a9f6d6fc6a0ec8.mp4
The installer is now blaming the cap, and reached out to the manufacturer to see if they make a wind proof one. They don't, it's not in their catalog, and I'm convinced the problem initially originated from nothing but tension holding offset/return/flue sections together. I'm unable to go up on the roof, and requested photos of how the gap between old and new flue was secured at the roof entry. They're attached. Guys, can you please offer some feedback? Anchoring the top section with drywall/metal screws through thin sheet of old pipe pinning the new pipe seems like a disaster waiting to happen. I expected to see a bracket, a clamp, a pipe adapter.. I'm no expert on wind loads or steel erosion in elements, but does this seem like a legit installation? Photos attached. Thanks in advance!!

View attachment 278240 View attachment 278241

I dunno about that centering method but the fact that they used drywall screws tells me they don't really know what they're doing.
If that's the only thing stabilizing the pipe at the top, then I say, no wonder it's rattling!
I assume they added a flashing or at least a storm collar above that after taking the pictures, right??