Fireplace condemned?

[seanb]

Just got a home inspection on my home as I'm selling it right now. The inspection found a crack on the brick and mortar chimney on the exterior of the home. Crack appears to be a normal brick crack, it's roughly 39" long and is from what I can tell a hairline. The buyers agent got a quote from a chimney/fireplace/masonry place and they're saying it's condemned and would need 30k of work to make safe.

Does this seem right? I've attached a video of the crack. Would this not be something you would just seal up?

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Pretty overwhelmed at the moment.

 

[BrotherBart]

I can't make much out in the video. But that looks like veneer to me. Are you sure that isn't a concrete block chimney with brick veneer on it? Maybe not. But take some still pics with light so we get a better look.

 

[seanb]

These are the pictures from the home inspection. I won't be able to take better ones until tomorrow when it is light outside.

Mind you, this quote was given to the buyers agent via pictures sent, this was not visually inspected. He said he was giving an estimate of 28-30k to replace the whole thing.

 

[seanb]

I apologize for my ignorance, I know nothing about this stuff.

 

[Jan Pijpelink]

I 2nd BB, it looks a lot like veneer.

 

[bholler]

I agree it loos like a veneer. Also a sweep and or mason cannot condemn anything. And that tiny crack it that is all that is there is certainly not to much of a concern in and of itself.

 

[seanb]

Thanks for the help everyone, so far everyone I have talked to thinks it's absurd that a single story house built in 1985 in southern california needs a chimney rebuilt. I've lived here 6 years and haven't even lit the thing up.

I'll need to get someone out here and write me a report. Thanks again.

 

[bholler]

Thanks for the help everyone, so far everyone I have talked to thinks it's absurd that a single story house built in 1985 in southern california needs a chimney rebuilt. I've lived here 6 years and haven't even lit the thing up.

At that age I have seen plenty that need rebuilt and the fact that you havnt used it has no bearing on that. I cannot say for sure that yours does not need rebuilt but if that crack is their reason for saying it needs rebuilt I don't see it.

 

[woodhog73]

Aren't most masonry chimneys made with concrete block these days ( like last 50 years ) and then bricks put over them to make it look nice ?

I just assumed all brick chimney construction would be found on very old houses made before concrete blocks were available.

If it's concrete block with brick over it, look in the attic. The builders probably not going to put colorful bricks over the concrete blocks that are out of sight in the attic. To save money The builder probably would have covered the concrete block chimney only in areas that are visible to give it a brick look / better appearance than a plain concrete block.

I'm no expert but if someone told me the chimney bricks were cracked, and I knew it was just the colorful bricks outside of a concrete block chimney, I'd show them the concrete block chimney portion in the attic. Should settle that

Doesn't mean your chimney is safe to use though for that get a good sweep to do an inspection. Perhaps the liner inside has issues who knows

 

[bholler]

Aren't most masonry chimneys made with concrete block these days ( like last 50 years ) and then bricks put over them to make it look nice ?

I just assumed all brick chimney construction would be found on very old houses made before concrete blocks were available.

No not at all some are built that way some are built with brick it depends on lots of factors. In our area a block structure with a veneer is very rare. But regardless even if it is only a brick veneer if there is serious cracking it can be a real issue still. But again I don't see serious cracking in this case and I also don't think this chimney is a veneer of actual full brick

 

[woodhog73]

No not at all some are built that way some are built with brick

I didn't know that. It seems building with brick would be way more expensive and time consuming than using concrete blocks ? Do you find all brick construction on higher end more expensive homes ?

Mine is concrete block with bricks over the exposed areas only to dress the look up. The areas not exposed were not covered and just look like concrete block. However I do need to replace a few cracked bricks on the outside of the chimney but I don't worry too much because the concrete block behind them is good.

 

[begreen]

Age may not be relevant, especially if this is an earthquake crack. Have the chimney inspected by a professional sweep and have them run a camera down inside to see if the tile liner is also cracked or not.

 

[bholler]

I didn't know that. It seems building with brick would be way more expensive and time consuming than using concrete blocks ? Do you find all brick construction on higher end more expensive homes ?

Mine is concrete block with bricks over the exposed areas only to dress the look up. The areas not exposed were not covered and just look like concrete block. However I do need to replace a few cracked bricks on the outside of the chimney but I don't worry too much because the concrete block behind them is good.

No it is more expensive to build a block structure and then build another brick structure over top of it. It all depends on the situation if only the face of the fireplace and the top is exposed then yeah it would make sense to build out of block and just do brick where it is seen but if it is on an outside wall or allot of it is exposed it makes no sense.

As far as bricks being cracked on the outside if they are bad cracks that outer brick structure could still fail and at the least it is letting water into the structure which will destroy the whole thing over time. You also have no idea if that block inside is cracked as well.

 

[Simonkenton]

It is easier to build with block than brick. One block takes up as much room as 8 brick.
Those look like decorative brick. I bet a dollar yours is a concrete structure faced with brick.

That is a hairline crack. I can't imagine that your fireplace is ruined. I think you are getting bum advice from this inspector.
Yes, hire a guy to run a camera down the flue and see if the flue is cracked. I bet it is not.
This exterior brick has been painted. I would just re paint it and the crack would be gone!

The point is, if that is all that it has cracked in 31 years, that is all that it will crack.
You can say bye-bye to that original buyer, re list it and call it a day.

I am not an expert on fireplaces, I am a log builder, but, I built the fireplace pictured at left and I know a little about fireplaces.

 

[bholler]

I bet a dollar yours is a concrete structure faced with brick.

I dont think that is even a real brick by the way the crack runs thought the mortar joints and brick without changing direction at all.

But I agree it does not look that bad from what we can see. But I would bet that if you have the flue scanned at 31 years old there will be issues with it. At the very least some missing mortar joints between tiles.

 

[Simonkenton]

Fireplaces draw air into them. Even if there were a slight crack in the exterior brick, and even if there were minor flaws in the flue, fire and sparks would not go out from the fireplace and catch the yard on fire. Rather, outside air would be drawn into the fireplace. There would be a slight inefficiency in the burning of the thing, and life would go on.
Fireplaces are inherently inefficient anyway, you would never notice it.

Since the fireplace is 31 years old, this crack that has developed is probably as bad now as it will ever get, it probably happened 29 years ago.

Plan B: After you re paint those bricks, convert the thing to gas logs. Most people prefer gas logs to all the hassles of burning wood, it would probably increase the value of the house by a thousand bucks if it were gas logs. Then, the "problem: of a hairline crack would really be a moot point.

PS That is a teeny tine clay flue pipe. It looks like an 8 inch pipe. That is bizarre.
Tell me please, what size is the inside opening of your fireplace. How wide is it, and how high?

 

[bholler]

Fireplaces draw air into them. Even if there were a slight crack in the exterior brick, and even if there were minor flaws in the flue, fire and sparks would not go out from the fireplace and catch the yard on fire. Rather, outside air would be drawn into the fireplace. There would be a slight inefficiency in the burning of the thing, and life would go on.
Fireplaces are inherently inefficient anyway, you would never notice it.

I dont think anyone ever thought that was a concern I am pretty sure the concern is a structural one.

Plan B: After you re paint those bricks, convert the thing to gas logs. Most people prefer gas logs to all the hassles of burning wood, it would probably increase the value of the house by a thousand bucks if it were gas logs. Then, the "problem: of a hairline crack would really be a moot point.

Why would it be a moot point gas logs have the exact same requirements as wood in a fireplace. Unless they are unvented which I would not recommend but that is another story

Since the fireplace is 31 years old, this crack that has developed is probably as bad now as it will ever get, it probably happened 29 years ago.

Not true at all this is an exterior masonry structure if water gets in to them they will crack we see cracks develop all the time in masonry of all ages. And a crack on the exterior is going to get worse if water can get into it. Also you need to notice the location. There is seismic considerations to think about in california

 

[seanb]

Turns out I have a Rampart General pre-cast fireplace. Apparently there is no approved repair by the manufacturer and the system should not be used -- this is the opinion of Dale Feb from the F.I.R.E.

I have sent pictures to several different fireplace contractors and have gotten everything from $30k for a new chimney, to $300 to seal the crack. By far the most common answer I get is a complete re-lining for $4-5k.

Here is a picture of the breast plate with the crack. I just don't see how this could cost $5k, let alone $30k. Any additional thoughts on this?

 

[seanb]

The 'cracks' on the left part of the picture are cobwebs lol

 

[Simonkenton]

Convert it to gas logs.

 

[tarzan]

I googled "Rampart General Fireplace" and got a good deal of info ranging from the common problems, such as yours, to cost of repair.

Actually an interesting read on the design but I couldn't find anything on how the pre fabbed chimney system come to share its name with the hospital from the show Emergency.

 

[begreen]

Has it been confirmed that the interior breast plate crack goes all the way through to the exterior crack? If so, a little caulk doesn't sound like a proper fix. Not sure how a relining would reach that low either.

Still wondering if this is earthquake related. There was a 5.4 quake in 1986 in Oceanside that did a fair amount of damage and injuries. Have you considered or gotten a quote for complete removal and wall replacement?

 

[bholler]

Convert it to gas logs.

That will not fix anything or bring it up to code. I don't know that fireplace system at all but if those that do say it is damaged and is unsafe to use I would get another opinion or two but a gas log set will fix absolutely nothing. And if it is unsafe to burn wood in it is unsafe to burn gas in.

I just don't see how this could cost $5k, let alone $30k. Any additional thoughts on this?

Like I said before I know nothing about the system so knowing it is a prefab unit and there is no approved fix I would say a complete rebuild is probably the only solution to bring it back up to code. And yes it could easily be $30k Typically a fireplace in our area on a single story will run $15k to $20 but it can be more than that. And 4 to 5 thousand for a fireplace reline is not to out of line It sounds a bit high but I dont know the height or size of the liner required. But I am not sure a liner will fix the issues.

 

[seanb]

Has it been confirmed that the interior breast plate crack goes all the way through to the exterior crack? If so, a little caulk doesn't sound like a proper fix. Not sure how a relining would reach that low either.

Still wondering if this is earthquake related. There was a 5.4 quake in 1986 in Oceanside that did a fair amount of damage and injuries. Have you considered or gotten a quote for complete removal and wall replacement?

The crack does not go all the way through. Crack on the outside is 100% superficial, per the inspector that was out here today.

That will not fix anything or bring it up to code. I don't know that fireplace system at all but if those that do say it is damaged and is unsafe to use I would get another opinion or two but a gas log set will fix absolutely nothing. And if it is unsafe to burn wood in it is unsafe to burn gas in.


Like I said before I know nothing about the system so knowing it is a prefab unit and there is no approved fix I would say a complete rebuild is probably the only solution to bring it back up to code. And yes it could easily be $30k Typically a fireplace in our area on a single story will run $15k to $20 but it can be more than that. And 4 to 5 thousand for a fireplace reline is not to out of line It sounds a bit high but I dont know the height or size of the liner required. But I am not sure a liner will fix the issues.

The guy that came out today simply disagrees that these should be condemned or completely replaced from little cracks like these. He said that these prefabs can get rough, but that mine is in otherwise perfect condition and that common sense should come into play at some point. He has never once seen a fire from cracks in these in 40 years he's been working on fireplaces. He said he has had clients who had structural engineers sign off on his work and that he'd be happy to back his work in any way he needed to.

Not sure this is enough to get my house sold... I guess at this point it's going to be up to the buyers if I decide to repair rather than replace?

Never thought I'd have so much trouble selling my house over a pre-fabricated chimney..... sheesh

 

[begreen]

A couple options in the ~7-10K range to consider would be a complete tear out and rebuild without the fireplace or teardown and replace with a chased, ZC fireplace installation.