Fireplace depth too small....ideas?

[Coog]

I am fairly new to the forum but have been an avid reader for some time. I have a gas fireplace upstairs in the living room I have always regretted putting in. It was installed when we built the house and my wife and I made the decision too quickly. We rarely turn it on.

I have the insert all closed up with masonry but intend to remove the perimeter pieces around the fireplace and install a new wood fireplace.The gas burner will go downstairs when I finish the basement.

I have a friend that can do the masonry work but have a concern about wood framing depth.I have 22.5” from the front of the back stud to the front face of the hearth stud.Are there wood fireplaces that accommodate this depth? I don’t want a cheapy.I need something with a catalyst like any RSF Opel or an FPX 44.Anything out there?

Any other ideas?Maybe I could notch out the back stud to obtain a 24” depth? Thanks in advance.

 

[Grisu]

I am not sure if I can follow your problem. Will you have ~24" depth or will that cut further short by some shielding that will go between the fireplace and the studs? Pics would help a lot. In the end I think it will depend a lot what insert/fireplace you want to put in and what are the clearance requirements.
How many square ft do you want to heat? How about a flush insert like the newly released Osburn Matrix (broken link removed to http://www.osburn-mfg.com/product.aspx?Id=583&CategoId=7) Why would you like a catalytic fireplace? Do you need longer burn times? The FPX does not sound very impressive in that regard with 12 hrs max. Once you get a little bit more specific I am sure you will get many helpful answers.

 

[Coog]

Thanks and let me see if I can better explain. I took the decorative cover off as you can see in the pictures. I want to pull out the gas fireplace and install a wood fireplace. The "interior depth" or available space that the fireplace will slide into is about 22.5". To get to 24", I will have to do something creative, if anything works. Or, is there a fireplace that can accommodate my limited depth. The limiting factor is the depth.

I have 1,800 SF with a full basement so about 3,600 total. The fireplace is about center of house on the main floor and is in the room we will spend most of our time. Long burn times are desirable but 12 hour sounds great. I am open to the fireplace selection at this point. Again, my limiting factor is that depth.

 

[Grisu]

Thanks, I think we are now coming closer to an answer. If I got that right you essentially just want to take out the gas fireplace and put a wood fireplace/insert in!? And the depth of your fireplace is 22.5" but my guess is that there are no bricks in the back that means you will probably need to add some shielding there. (I hope others chime in on that because that is certainly not my expertise.)

You will not be able to heat your basement with a stove on the main floor so what you are looking for is a unit that can heat 1800 sqft. Do you want it to be your only heat source or just supplement? How well is your house insulated? A medium size stove with ~2.3 cu ft firebox may be just enough but a larger stove with ~3 cu ft may also be warranted. For example the PE Summit (3 cu ft) has a depth of 18". The large Osburn 2400 needs a minimum of 17 1/4" depth. The Quadrafire inserts have a bay window which allows a good view of the fire and run about the same depth. The question is how much width and height do you have?

 

[DAKSY]

What's behind the existing structure? That's where you're going to lose some room.
You are never gonna get a wood burning unit in thru that arch, & I bet that the gas unit is also bigger than that opening. Plus, you'll hafta remove all the gas vent & re-install the wood burner's approved chimney. You're gonna hafta remove the gas unit from the rear, so instead of cobbing & hacking up the existing framing, remove it & reframe everything, after the install, making sure you adhere to the clearances specified in your install manual...

 

[madison]

-not want you want to hear, but I would leave it as is.

if you are dead set on a wood burner, have you considered adding a freestanding in another location? It could be slightly less expensive, when you consider you have to put in a new liner, overhaul the hearth etc. you could then get the stove of your choice rather than shoehorning something (if possible) into the existing space.

Can't see how high the stone work goes (which looks really nice) - but removing all of it and starting from scratch in that location $$$!! Would be my last choice.

I see all sorts of potential clearance complications IF you try to cram an insert into the existing space:
1. hearth dimension in front of the stove looks marginal -- if the stove projects out from the stone facing - the hearth depth dimension looks like would be less than code. And it looks like nice wood floor under the rug.
2. that really cool log mantel would be in jeopardy.
3. whatever is behind the current gas insert (studs if I read correctly) would be an issue to deal with as well.

 

[Coog]

-not want you want to hear, but I would leave it as is.

if you are dead set on a wood burner, have you considered adding a freestanding in another location? It could be slightly less expensive, when you consider you have to put in a new liner, overhaul the hearth etc. you could then get the stove of your choice rather than shoehorning something (if possible) into the existing space.

Can't see how high the stone work goes (which looks really nice) - but removing all of it and starting from scratch in that location $$$!! Would be my last choice.

I see all sorts of potential clearance complications IF you try to cram an insert into the existing space:
1. hearth dimension in front of the stove looks marginal -- if the stove projects out from the stone facing - the hearth depth dimension looks like would be less than code. And it looks like nice wood floor under the rug.
2. that really cool log mantel would be in jeopardy.
3. whatever is behind the current gas insert (studs if I read correctly) would be an issue to deal with as well.

To answer DAKSY's question; the stairs are behind the fireplace. Yah, I know. Trying to think outside of the box here a little. I wonder if I could let it protrude out a little to the front, I need about 3", depending on the fireplace selected, and wrap it with stone. I would need to confirm that the chimney clearance in the front is upheld. That may be tough. Not sure if that is doable or not. Will have to check. Certainly not my preference to do it this way but am going to look from every angle before I throw in the towel.

I have looked, extensively, at other locations options in my house for a fireplace /stove but without success. I built the fireplace in that location as focal point of my whole house. The stone goes up 12 feet to my vaulted ceiling. There was lot of thought put into it, unfortunately not into the fireplace. I am willing to pay a little more to maintain the visual integrity. Like I said, wish I would never had put it in but decisions in haste are decisions none the less. Any other creative thoughts are welcome. Thanks for your help so far.

 

[Coog]

I may be talking to myself at this point but I have been doing a lot of research and found that the kozy heat 231 model has a design required depth of 22.5". Score! The unit looks great with a 3.19 cuft firebox and I have heard a lot of good things about Kozyheat in this forum. The owners manual says it is EPA exempt. Whatever that means. There still is much work to be done in firguing out the masonry and mantel height but I think I can work around that. I will keep working..

 

[madison]

Interesting, good find. Looks like a major overhaul of the current hearth to "get 'er done"

I read that the "interactive" brochure lists it as EPA certified, in contrast to the other brochure on the website. I also noted that the firebox dimensions are slightly different (2.98 ft3)- possibly because I was looking at a slightly different model number?
pg 2 (broken link removed to http://www.kozyheat.com/brochureApp/woodburning/index.html)

 

[begreen]

The 231 is an EPA exempt fireplace. It has a lower efficiency rating because it must allow a continual flow of air to meet the 35:1 air ratio. This means more heat and emissions up the chimney and less in the house.

Rather than trying to squeeze a compromise, consider Daksy's proposal. What if you open up the chase from the backside, remove the gas unit and it's vent piping, then build a 6" bump out to accommodate a standard sized EPA unit? Another alternative would be to bump it out in front, and replace the existing mantle with a full width, stone mantel at the top of the bump out. That would hide the top visual line of the bump out and help it look intentional.

 

[Coog]

The 231 is an EPA exempt fireplace. It has a lower efficiency rating because it must allow a continual flow of air to meet the 35:1 air ratio. This means more heat and emissions up the chimney and less in the house.

Rather than trying to squeeze a compromise, consider Daksy's proposal. What if you open up the chase from the backside, remove the gas unit and it's vent piping, then build a 6" bump out to accommodate a standard sized EPA unit? Another alternative would be to bump it out in front, and replace the existing mantle with a full width, stone mantel at the top of the bump out. That would hide the top visual line of the bump out and help it look intentional.

I like you’re thinking begreen and was starting to get there in my own mind. I wish I could get 6 inches in the back but the stairwell behind it is prohibitive. Although...I could cut the studs on the back side (where it adjoins the stairwell) and place a header to hold the framing. The load at that location is really just the weight of the wall, no roof. That would give me 3.5" more which gives me 26" clear. Most of the EPA fireplaces require no more than 26". Except the big Napoleon. I think that thing asks for 31". Then I could run the drywall past, flush at the back side where I cut the studs. That would be a lot of drywall without fastening, though.

I like your second thought even better. The only complication is the vent piping. If I bump the fireplace forward, I may not make the minimum clearance required from the vent to wood framing at the top/front of the fireplace. I suppose I could put a bend in but usually the manufacturer requires no turns/bends until a certain height above the fireplace, I thought. Will need to confirm.

Are the mantle clearances only applicable to combustible material like wood? If I use stone, can the clearance be closer the fireplace? Thanks for the continued responses.
.

 

[begreen]

This will take some critical measuring for sure, but I think you might be ok with bringing the fireplace forward a few inches. They vent from the middle or a bit more toward the rear. That should still allow wiggle room with a 24" deep unit. Usually all you need is 2 or more inches clearance to combustibles for the chimney. A bump forward would open up your options to some top performing fireplaces. Yes you can lower the mantle if it is non-combustible.

An RSF Opel or a BIS Tradition would look pretty nice in that setup. Or maybe a Quadrafire 7100?

 

[Coog]

This will take some critical measuring for sure, but I think you might be ok with bringing the fireplace forward a few inches. They vent from the middle or a bit more toward the rear. That should still allow wiggle room with a 24" deep unit. Usually all you need is 2 or more inches clearance to combustibles for the chimney. A bump forward would open up your options to some top performing fireplaces. Yes you can lower the mantle if it is non-combustible.

An RSF Opel or a BIS Tradition would look pretty nice in that setup. Or maybe a Quadrafire 7100?

It is harder than you would think to get those extra 2 or 3 inches. Some vent openings are back set but most are center set. The fireplace extrordinair requitres 4.5" from the vent to the front combustables. Like I said though, I should be able to bend my flue, hopefully. Looking into the quadrafire but they are much pricier than the RSF. Had not researched the BIS. Looks like a nice unit. The Opel cat appears to be EPA certified but the non-cat is exempt. I do like the opel though. Not a big fan of the cat the more I look around. Seams like some work okay and other have their problems. Anyone have there success stories with their fireplace?

 

[begreen]

I think you will find some good units that vent a bit more to the rear. Have you looked at the Lennox fireplaces like the Villa Vista or Montecito Estate?

Caveat, Lennox is selling out their hearth division. But this could be an opportunity for a good deal on their branded stock.

https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/has-lennox-soldout-the-country-brand-line.88874/#post-1155553

Sale example:

http://choosefireplacesandstoves.co...ox-Fireplaces/Lennox-Wood-Burning-Fireplaces/

 

[begreen]

Fyrebug (Osburn sales) has mentioned that he likes the Valcourt line. The FP10 Lafayette is a handsome unit. It looks like there's a dealer in Rockport, IL if you're interested.

ADVANCED CHIMNEY SYSTEMS
3486 LONERGAN DRIVE
ROCKFORD(IL) US (815) 874-7377

(broken link removed to http://www.valcourtinc.com/product.aspx?CategoId=20&Id=551&Page=spec)

 

[Coog]

It looks like a lot of options. I am trying to narrow in my focus. Looks like BIS, RSF, Lennox, Quadrafire, Valcourt, Kozyheat or FP Extrordinair are all good options. I have to be honest. I had no idea there were so many to pick from. That is good but also somewhat over whelming. Thanks for the help begreen.

 

[begreen]

Try to decide on the features and look you want. For example, do you want to duct heat off the fireplace to another location? Do you want catalytic or non-cat, single door or split? Personally, I like fireplaces that connect to standard class A high-temp piping like DuraTech, ICC Excel, etc.. Make up a list of your preferences and that will reduce the choices.

Look at the local service network too. A good dealer with lots of positive local references is where I would start.

 

[Coog]

Ya, that sounds like a good idea. I want local service without having to drive to a more distant town. As I look around there are a lot of good looking units. I like the Lennox Montecito becuase it is EPA certified with a 4 Cuft firebox. It is tough to get an EPA unit with a firefox that big and at that price (given they are selling out). The Quad 7100 is not quite as big but pricier (it would be more expensive than the lennox if the lennox brand was not on sale). The FP Ex 44 is nice also. The BIS and Valcourt are not sold locally near where I live. Rockford is about and hour and a half from here. Kozy heat is still a viable option if I go with the Z42. That leaves me with:

Quad 7100
FP EX 44
Lennox Montecito
Kozy Heat Z42
RSF Opel, (Which is a Cat, so this one may fall off)

Still leaning towards the Lennox.

Should I worry about Lennox standing by their product if they are selling out? I suppose, if now one is going bankrupt, the new owner would have to support the warranties. What do you think I would pay for 16' of vent pipe, air cooled or insulated?

 

[begreen]

There were other Valcourt dealers listed in northern IL. Check their website to see if there's a closer one.

Piping prices and service are good from this site: www.dynamitebuys.com

 

[Coog]

Nope Rockford is the closest. Thanks

 

[Coog]

There were other Valcourt dealers listed in northern IL. Check their website to see if there's a closer one.

Piping prices and service are good from this site: www.dynamitebuys.com

Hey, found out I have a local dealer that sells BIS. I like the Tradition model. Is BIS made/owned by Lennox? They seem similar. Sorry to keep bugging you.

 

[begreen]

Not Lennox, BIS is made by Security, the same company that makes the chimney product. They've been around for a long time.