For Big Homes and multiple heat sources - Replace with wood or Pellet?

[NE Poultry Supply]

I use a lot of wood.
Thinking of replacing the VC Defiant/Encore and the other steel box with 2 others (First thoughts are the NC 30 Englander or The PAH pellet).

I would love to not have to load wood but Pellets are going up in price and it seem the 3.5 cu fire box on the 30 would provide more heat than what I have seen with my Defiant.

I am reluctant to go to pellet due to problems. Almost tempted to do a Harmon P series based on reputation but spending that amount seems crazy.

I guess I would love to hear from someone that has experienced the 30 or the PAH or the IP (imperial) from Englander and the Harmon P and can give me advice on pellet use/efficiency and heat output from your real world experience.

Today I get a double load of log lengh, cut split stack, and then get 10 tons of bio bricks. When the north wind blows we are still having trouble keeping up and that is with a shaver OWB and the two wood stoves going.
It is +4500 sqft.

 

[Grisu]

When the north wind blows we are still having trouble keeping up and that is with a shaver OWB and the two wood stoves going.

Did you ever have an energy audit done on your home? 3 heating appliances and you are still cold suggests you have a terrible heat loss. If you want to reduce your wood (pellet) use tightening the house up will almost be the only way to make that happen.
In general, 4500 sqft is wood furnace/boiler territory. What model OWB do you have? It seems undersized for your house.

Is the Defiant on an 8" flue currently? You may want to swap that out for a XL-stove for more heat and no change in the chimney. Suitable models would be: Kuma Sequoia, Buck 91 or 94, Hearthstone Equinox, BlazeKing King, Regency 5100. It remains to be seen whether you can reduce your wood usage then.

Today I get a double load of log lengh, cut split stack,

When do you want to burn that wood? If that is for this winter a major problem you are having is that you are wasting a ton of heat up your chimney when you boil off the water that is in the splits. Firewood should be split and stacked at least 2 summers in advance of the winter it is going to be burnt. You want to get the internal moisture content below 20%.

 

[maple1]

I think I would work at reducing my heat losses first. Switching to pellets in the current circumstances would likely cost you some big bucks for pellets.

Even though OWBs burn a lot of wood, they can usually keep a place warm, if done right. What kind of undergound piping do you have? Have you ever done any measuring of temps on it, out of & into boiler, and into & out of house?

 

[NE Poultry Supply]

Thanks for your reply and comments. I added answers to your questions inline.

Did you ever have an energy audit done on your home? Energy audit is happening today. There are some heat loss areas. I also think the baseboard zones are too long and need to be split up.


3 heating appliances and you are still cold suggests you have a terrible heat loss. If you want to reduce your wood (pellet) use tightening the house up will almost be the only way to make that happen.
In general, 4500 sqft is wood furnace/boiler territory. What model OWB do you have? Shaver is the brand not sure on the model as the home had it here when I got here.

It seems undersized for your house.

Is the Defiant on an 8" flue currently? Yes 8"

You may want to swap that out for a XL-stove for more heat and no change in the chimney. Suitable models would be: Kuma Sequoia, Buck 91 or 94, Hearthstone Equinox, BlazeKing King, Regency 5100. It remains to be seen whether you can reduce your wood usage then.

Thanks, there are some there I have not heard of and will research. Is the NC-30 not in that list?

When do you want to burn that wood? If that is for this winter a major problem you are having is that you are wasting a ton of heat up your chimney when you boil off the water that is in the splits. Firewood should be split and stacked at least 2 summers in advance of the winter it is going to be burnt. You want to get the internal moisture content below 20%.

Agree, Getting ahead has been nearly impossible. That is why I buy 10 tons of bio bricks. They are dry and I burn them indoors. Some I do outside to help boil the wood there.

 

[NE Poultry Supply]

I think I would work at reducing my heat losses first. Switching to pellets in the current circumstances would likely cost you some big bucks for pellets.

Even though OWBs burn a lot of wood, they can usually keep a place warm, if done right. What kind of undergound piping do you have?
Not sure but it looks to be not well enough. I can see melted snow above that spot.

Have you ever done any measuring of temps on it, out of & into boiler, and into & out of house?

Hi Maple1,
Not sure but the underground pipe run looks to be not well enough insulated it may also be saturated in water. I can often see melted snow above that spot.

I can see that would tell some good information. I have done some measurements but they all depend on how cold things are. I did notice that it does a good job till the real big cold snaps. Then it seems the hose pulls all the heat and it can not catch up. Especially if we let the coal bed get too low. It is very hard to build back up again (with 1 year old wood)

 

[Grisu]

The 30NC is not on that list because it would need a 6" flue. You could maybe try it on an 8" if it is tall enough and a straight shot up but since you need a really big heater anyway I would look at the models I posted. Most, if not all of them, should have a larger firebox than the 30NC and would therefore be able to give you more heat. They are more expensive, though, but you would save some $ by not having to change the chimney. What kind of chimney is that and is it still in good shape?

If you cannot get ahead on the wood have you thought about buying already split cords? Will be cheaper than the bricks and less work than processing your own logs. That won't help you this year but hopefully next. Once you are a year or two ahead you can just continue replenishing your stacks.

 

[NE Poultry Supply]

The 30NC is not on that list because it would need a 6" flue. You could maybe try it on an 8" if it is tall enough and a straight shot up but since you need a really big heater anyway I would look at the models I posted. Most, if not all of them, should have a larger firebox than the 30NC and would therefore be able to give you more heat. They are more expensive, though, but you would save some $ by not having to change the chimney. What kind of chimney is that and is it still in good shape?

If you cannot get ahead on the wood have you thought about buying already split cords? Will be cheaper than the bricks and less work than processing your own logs. That won't help you this year but hopefully next. Once you are a year or two ahead you can just continue replenishing your stacks.

The chimney is Brick lined with Clay. It goes straight up very high over 30' maybe 40' Had it inspected this week and they said it looks real good. Bio bricks were very clean and they did not want to brush cause it would be stealing my money. (strange cause it has been two years). It goes to the ground with outside cleanout.

 

[Lake Girl]

I can often see melted snow above that spot.

Need to do some serious insulating on that line as you are losing too much heat to the ground.

 

[maple1]

Hi Maple1,
Not sure but the underground pipe run looks to be not well enough insulated it may also be saturated in water. I can often see melted snow above that spot.
I can see that would tell some good information. I have done some measurements but they all depend on how cold things are. I did notice that it does a good job till the real big cold snaps. Then it seems the hose pulls all the heat and it can not catch up. Especially if we let the coal bed get too low. It is very hard to build back up again (with 1 year old wood)

That is very bad. I suspect that 3/4 of the wood you are burning in the OWB, is not making to inside of your house in the form of heat. OWBs loose quite a bit anyway, just because they sit outside. But losing to the ground is another level. Wet against your pipes will suck the heat right out.

If the OWB is in decent shape and you intend to keep it for a while, I would replace the piping with the proper stuff - which is insulated with closed cell foam. Thermopex is one example, or you could check out the underground piping sticky in the Boiler Room forum for another way. Otherwise your hard earned dollars are being sucked into the earth. It is costly (like between $10 & $20 per foot) - but that is one place that you need to make sure is done right.

If you are really in this place for the long haul, you might consider replacing the boiler with a better boiler setup, but that is another level of consideration. Don't think we know much about your heating system inside the house that the boiler is hooked to - but nothing much beats a central heating system for a big house that is not very open inside. If you would really like to do pellets, there are some very nice pellet boilers out there too you could put inside the house - then you could forget about the OWB.

 

[NE Poultry Supply]

Thermopex is one example, or you could check out the underground piping sticky in the Boiler Room forum for another way. Otherwise your hard earned dollars are being sucked into the earth. It is costly (like between $10 & $20 per foot) - but that is one place that you need to make sure is done right.

Digging this out may be more than I want to get into. It is under the wood shed.

 

[NE Poultry Supply]

Found a Kuma dealer in South Portland. Said he just started to sell them 3 months ago. Did not have much info. Looks good Price was $2700.

 

[Grisu]

Ideally the flue should have an insulated 8" stainless steel liner in it for safety and better draft. Maybe contact Kuma about your setup and whether they think the Sequoia will draft well with a clay-lined chimney. Not many Sequoia owners here but this thread may be helpful: https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/kuma-sequoia-insert-install.140772/#post-1939233

 

[Lake Girl]

Digging this out may be more than I want to get into. It is under the wood shed.

Is it possible to relocate the OWB so that the in-ground piping can be replace with the properly insulated lines?

 

[NE Poultry Supply]

Maybe I move to an indoor Boiler (wood or pellet) and take out the whole underground business. I already have to rebuild it before winter with new circ pump and blower etc.

 

[maple1]

If thinking now about a central heating change, you might want to spend some time in the Boiler Room - all kinds of good stuff there.

Realistically, it's too late now to get a good indoor wood boiler setup in for this year, and set up & running. You'd need dry wood, for starters.

A pellet boiler would be a different story, and the fuel is already dry.

You've got all kinds of choices & options - might take a year just to figure out the right one(s) for you, as it's a substantial investment & you'd want to get it right the first time. Also most of those choices & options depend on your specific situation - like existing heating system, how much room you have to put what where, local fuel situation, and personal preferences about all kinds of things. Takes a while to sort all that stuff out and learn what's available.

 

[NE Poultry Supply]

Realistically, it's too late now to get a good indoor wood boiler setup in for this year, and set up & running. You'd need dry wood, for starters.

Funny you say that. I was up last night reading about them (again) I have been toying with the idea for a while. I think I hoped that two of the right stoves inside would take away the need for my outdoor burner. I think looking at the indoor boilers again I may go that route. I looked at pellet before and have some dealers in the area looking at it with me. I will spend some more time lurking in the boiler page. I usually get bio bricks to compensate for the lack of dry wood. My system and space is set up to take it pretty easy. Depending on water storage. I could be close to get it in if I get moving on it.

 

[Ashful]

On the road now, but marking this one for later. We're heating 7860 sq ft. Welcome to multiple stove territory.

 

[Oldman47]

Look at your uses. If you want to burn during an emergency power outage you will be SOL trying to use that pellet stove. If your power is fairly reliable and you are paying for wood anyway, maybe the convenience of pellets makes sense. None of us are in your shoes so you will need to decide what is right for you.

 

[NE Poultry Supply]

On the road now, but marking this one for later. We're heating 7860 sq ft. Welcome to multiple stove territory.

Ashful, looking forward to your comments. you look to have a similar heating load.

 

[NE Poultry Supply]

My energy audit came back with a quote of over $7k in sealing and insulation. But they could not tell me how much wood it would save me. Ugh...

 

[Ashful]

Sorry... marked, then forgot. Just for background and comparison, here's the summary of our situation:

Our heated space:
- 3200 sq.ft. 1770's stone construction
- 800 sq.ft. 1890's framed construction
- 2000 sq.ft. 1990's framed construction
- 600 sq.ft. heated attached garage (1990's)
- 1200 sq.ft. heated detached workshop (1770's)

The oldest part of the house is un-insulated 18" stone walls (plastered inside) with original single-pane windows, all with good storm windows on them. Radiation losses thru the windows are very low (in fact better than any of our new windows), but they are drafty. Original doors, which are both drafty and radiant. It is heated with four zones (one per floor) off our oil-fired boiler, via copper fin-tube radiators, plus one Ashford 30 on the second level (we call our first-floor), and electric baseboard heaters in three of the bathrooms. Basement is walk-out, and heated only to 60F, being one of the baseboard zones on the boiler.

The 1890's part of the house is our biggest problem area, to be gutted and re-done in the next few years. It's pretty, but it's drafty. Heated via two zones (one per floor) off the oil boiler, plus whatever spills over from the Ashford 30 in the 1990's wing.

The 1990's addition has all the best windows and doors of the period, but it's nearly all glass. I count three double French doors and nine floor to ceiling windows in the family room, alone. Heated via one zone on oil boiler, plus Ashford 30, plus one mini-split in room above garage.

The heated garage is a typical situation with medium grade doors (steel over polystyrene, and 6" bat insulation. It's heated by a direct-vent propane heater, mostly just to keep our garage fridges and freezers from malfunctioning in the dead of winter.

Heated shop is via dual-head mini-split. It's 1770's timber frame, rebuilt in 1800's, and then again last year. Insulated with 4" - 6" closed cell spray foam, so about as tight as can be.

All that to say that our solution has been to give up on ever heating this small village we call our home with wood alone. Our combined heating expense without wood stoves was close to $10k per year, figuring oil + electric + propane. With wood, we've cut that by at least half.

My mentality has therefore shifted to just keeping two stoves going 24/7, just adding BTU's to the giant capacitor that is the structure of te house. Every stick of wood burned means a few less dollars spent on oil and electrons. I used to kill myself trying to keep the house warm with the small army of thermostats all turned down low, and then about two years ago just said "screw it", and set the thermostats to comfortable temperatures. When the stoves are going, the boiler kicks on for only a few minutes during he morning "warm up" cycle, when all the t'stats call for heat. When the stoves are shut down, that boiler runs pretty much from 6am - 8am, without stopping. I guess it's sized very close to minimum, for the load.

My advice to anyone heating a space similar to this (although there are likely very few), is to just keep putting BTU's into the house, and not sweat trying to heat 100% via wood. Go for 80%, and let the conventional heating system modulate that last few degrees to keep you comfortable. The best of both worlds, saving money while staying comfortable.

 

[NE Poultry Supply]

Sorry... marked, then forgot. Just for background and comparison, here's the summary of our situation:

Our heated space:
- 3200 sq.ft. 1770's stone construction
- 800 sq.ft. 1890's framed construction
- 2000 sq.ft. 1990's framed construction
- 600 sq.ft. heated attached garage (1990's)
- 1200 sq.ft. heated detached workshop (1770's)

The oldest part of the house is un-insulated 18" stone walls (plastered inside) with original single-pane windows, all with good storm windows on them. Radiation losses thru the windows are very low (in fact better than any of our new windows), but they are drafty. Original doors, which are both drafty and radiant. It is heated with four zones (one per floor) off our oil-fired boiler, via copper fin-tube radiators, plus one Ashford 30 on the second level (we call our first-floor), and electric baseboard heaters in three of the bathrooms. Basement is walk-out, and heated only to 60F, being one of the baseboard zones on the boiler.

The 1890's part of the house is our biggest problem area, to be gutted and re-done in the next few years. It's pretty, but it's drafty. Heated via two zones (one per floor) off the oil boiler, plus whatever spills over from the Ashford 30 in the 1990's wing.

The 1990's addition has all the best windows and doors of the period, but it's nearly all glass. I count three double French doors and nine floor to ceiling windows in the family room, alone. Heated via one zone on oil boiler, plus Ashford 30, plus one mini-split in room above garage.

The heated garage is a typical situation with medium grade doors (steel over polystyrene, and 6" bat insulation. It's heated by a direct-vent propane heater, mostly just to keep our garage fridges and freezers from malfunctioning in the dead of winter.

Heated shop is via dual-head mini-split. It's 1770's timber frame, rebuilt in 1800's, and then again last year. Insulated with 4" - 6" closed cell spray foam, so about as tight as can be.

All that to say that our solution has been to give up on ever heating this small village we call our home with wood alone. Our combined heating expense without wood stoves was close to $10k per year, figuring oil + electric + propane. With wood, we've cut that by at least half.

My mentality has therefore shifted to just keeping two stoves going 24/7, just adding BTU's to the giant capacitor that is the structure of te house. Every stick of wood burned means a few less dollars spent on oil and electrons. I used to kill myself trying to keep the house warm with the small army of thermostats all turned down low, and then about two years ago just said "screw it", and set the thermostats to comfortable temperatures. When the stoves are going, the boiler kicks on for only a few minutes during he morning "warm up" cycle, when all the t'stats call for heat. When the stoves are shut down, that boiler runs pretty much from 6am - 8am, without stopping. I guess it's sized very close to minimum, for the load.

My advice to anyone heating a space similar to this (although there are likely very few), is to just keep putting BTU's into the house, and not sweat trying to heat 100% via wood. Go for 80%, and let the conventional heating system modulate that last few degrees to keep you comfortable. The best of both worlds, saving money while staying comfortable.

Thank you Good to hear from someone that can speak to my experiences.

 

[begreen]

My energy audit came back with a quote of over $7k in sealing and insulation. But they could not tell me how much wood it would save me. Ugh...

They should be able to provide you with an estimated btus savings. That can be converted into an approximate wood savings.

 

[maple1]

Sorry... marked, then forgot. Just for background and comparison, here's the summary of our situation:

Our heated space:
- 3200 sq.ft. 1770's stone construction
- 800 sq.ft. 1890's framed construction
- 2000 sq.ft. 1990's framed construction
- 600 sq.ft. heated attached garage (1990's)
- 1200 sq.ft. heated detached workshop (1770's)

The oldest part of the house is un-insulated 18" stone walls (plastered inside) with original single-pane windows, all with good storm windows on them. Radiation losses thru the windows are very low (in fact better than any of our new windows), but they are drafty. Original doors, which are both drafty and radiant. It is heated with four zones (one per floor) off our oil-fired boiler, via copper fin-tube radiators, plus one Ashford 30 on the second level (we call our first-floor), and electric baseboard heaters in three of the bathrooms. Basement is walk-out, and heated only to 60F, being one of the baseboard zones on the boiler.

The 1890's part of the house is our biggest problem area, to be gutted and re-done in the next few years. It's pretty, but it's drafty. Heated via two zones (one per floor) off the oil boiler, plus whatever spills over from the Ashford 30 in the 1990's wing.

The 1990's addition has all the best windows and doors of the period, but it's nearly all glass. I count three double French doors and nine floor to ceiling windows in the family room, alone. Heated via one zone on oil boiler, plus Ashford 30, plus one mini-split in room above garage.

The heated garage is a typical situation with medium grade doors (steel over polystyrene, and 6" bat insulation. It's heated by a direct-vent propane heater, mostly just to keep our garage fridges and freezers from malfunctioning in the dead of winter.

Heated shop is via dual-head mini-split. It's 1770's timber frame, rebuilt in 1800's, and then again last year. Insulated with 4" - 6" closed cell spray foam, so about as tight as can be.

All that to say that our solution has been to give up on ever heating this small village we call our home with wood alone. Our combined heating expense without wood stoves was close to $10k per year, figuring oil + electric + propane. With wood, we've cut that by at least half.

My mentality has therefore shifted to just keeping two stoves going 24/7, just adding BTU's to the giant capacitor that is the structure of te house. Every stick of wood burned means a few less dollars spent on oil and electrons. I used to kill myself trying to keep the house warm with the small army of thermostats all turned down low, and then about two years ago just said "screw it", and set the thermostats to comfortable temperatures. When the stoves are going, the boiler kicks on for only a few minutes during he morning "warm up" cycle, when all the t'stats call for heat. When the stoves are shut down, that boiler runs pretty much from 6am - 8am, without stopping. I guess it's sized very close to minimum, for the load.

My advice to anyone heating a space similar to this (although there are likely very few), is to just keep putting BTU's into the house, and not sweat trying to heat 100% via wood. Go for 80%, and let the conventional heating system modulate that last few degrees to keep you comfortable. The best of both worlds, saving money while staying comfortable.

Betchya a boiler could do it.

 

[Ashful]

Betchya a boiler could do it.

Do the math on the BTU usage based on $10k in conventional heating costs per year ($7k oil + $2k electric + $1k propane), and I'll think you'll find it impractical to heat 100% with wood even with a boiler. Not saying no wood-fired boiler could do it, but you'll be ordering and storing your firewood by the semi load.