Gas, LP, Pellet, Wood Question from a Newbie

[The Dali Lima]

Hi everyone... my first post here... I recently began thinking about adding a fireplace to my house. (I might own the only colonial in Connecticut without a fireplace) I don't like being overly reliant on oil to heat the house, especially with the possibility of electrical outages leaving us cold in poor weather. I thought adding a pellet stove would be the best answer, but then I found that it relies on electricity. In fact, most of my options rely on electricity (and I read that even some newer fireplaces have blowers that use electricity - right?) outside of a traditional fireplace/wood stove. So, what are the pros / cons of each? The LP option seems to be electricity independant, but doesn't the LP derive from oil and leave us in the same boat regarding cost?

I'm a totaly newbie, and don't know what to do... I love the looks of fireplaces and would prefer to be independant of oil and electricity at times (I wouldn't be heating everyday) and would love to be able to lower the thermostat except for our living room... Any suggestions? Required reading?

[edit] I suppose I should mention that I guess a generator is another option to keep the house heated...?


Thanks, steve

 

[The Dali Lima]

Hi there, the thought was to run the generator as a backup power for the oil furnace.

 

[begreen]

A freestanding woodstove with a nice fire view would be my first choice. How large a house and what kind of layout on the first floor? What are the options for stove (or fireplace) placement?

Many gas stoves (propane) can run without power, though some designs work better with a blower. Some makers are coming up with very attractive designs and flame. If you have the propane, you also have the option of switching the kitchen stove or cooktop to propane. This is nice in an extended power outage.

Pellet stoves do require power and are somewhat akin to having a small furnace in the room. They are very efficient and are easy to run.

Wood stoves usually don't need electricity, but some work much better with a blower. They have an attractive flame and give great peace of mind during extended power outages. Many stoves can double as a cooktop in a power outage. But it does take some caution to avoid boilovers and burning. Many stove tops get quite hot!

 

[smg64ct]

Hi,

I'm also in Connecticut and I hardly ever lose power. If I do its only for a short time. I heat my whole house with a pellet stove. I have electric heat and I don't turn it on.

 

[webbie]

A stove or fireplace is multi-purpose - backup heat, something to look at, etc.

Yes, LP is expensive...pellets can be too. But a space heater will always save some money over firing up an entire central system. There are pros and cons to most of the technologies. You should decide exactly what you want to accomplish (example, if ONLY backup heat, you could buy a wall mounted Rinnai heater or something like that)...... or, you can build something in with a hearth and mantle and have a fireplace look.

So many options when starting from scratch.

 

[Gooserider]

A free standing wood stove is probably the most energy independent option. It will run with no power, although some do have blowers, and in many houses folks use an assortment of fans to help move the heat around better. (depends on the exact setup for details) - however the worst case is simply that everyone has to camp in the room with the stove till the power comes back on. Most likely the rest of the house would get chilly, but the stove will keep the pipes from freezing.

An insert is probably not an option for you, since it needs a fireplace to be installed in, and you said you don't have one. - however it is like a stove in that it will burn w/o power, but is a bit more dependent on an electric blower for heat distribution.

A pre-fab "zero clearance" fireplace will be a net heat looser, unless you get an EPA approved heater/fireplace unit, in which case you have about the same situation as an insert - burns but doesn't do as well at heat distribution.

All of these options require cord wood, which can be purchased cut & split at moderate expense, or purchased in log length / scrounged where you process it your self - this is the absolute cheapest way to heat, but you pay for it in "sweat equity" Cordwood is also mostly a local source fuel, and the price tends to be fairly stable and only indirectly effected by global politics / price of oil / distant events.

Pellet stoves require electricity to operate, but not huge amounts, they can be run for considerable periods of time on battery backups of various sorts, or a small generator, although this takes some pre-planning. Pellet fuel can be expensive, much depends on when / where you get it, and there have been shortages in the past. Pellet stoves are also more complex, and like any item with lots of moving parts, can be subject to breakdowns. Some folks find them annoyingly noisy (depends on model, where it is, and your tolerance levels) Pellets are probably the most convenient, neatest, and lowest effort of the wood fuel alternatives, but you pay more for that convenience.

LP and Natural Gas (essentially the same units except for some minor parts changes) may or may not be able to function w/o electricity, depends on the unit, and obviously are petroleum dependent.

If you care about appearance, cordwood will give the original "natural flame" that everybody else tries to imitate. Some of the gas units look fairly realistic, but all are still imitating the "real thing"

For costs - I haven't priced gas units, but my understanding is that they are fairly reasonable, and their venting requirements are also pretty low cost and easy to meet.

Cord Wood, the stoves can be less expensive, but there is a wide range of costs depending on how fancy you want to get. However wood units will require the most expensive chimneys, with the most limitations on how they can be vented.

Pellet stoves are more expensive than wood stoves, but have easier, less expensive requirements for venting.

Except for the actual gas plumbing, some or all of the installation work for any of these could be done by a good DIY person to save on that part of the costs.

As you can see, there are a bunch of tradeoffs involved, and you need to make your own calls on how to decide which way you want to go on them.

Gooserider

 

[The Dali Lima]

Hi eveyone... been a while since I've been here. I have narrowed my options to a free-standing wood stove or a new construction fireplace (ie, pre-fabbed with a hearth built around it). From what I've read the new pre-fabbed fireplaces are pretty efficient, is that the case?

I haven't been to a local vendor yet, what does a fireplace cost to install? I don't have ANYTHING. No chimney, no pre-existing fireplace. I would need to put in a chimney (masonry chimney not necessary) and the stove/fireplace, and the hearth (if doing a pre-fabbed firebox).

Any thoughts on a ballpark figure?

Thanks, steve

 

[Bad Wolf]

You might want to look at just how much the stove draws in watts and get an inverter. A deep discharge battery should keep you going for hours and even if you do have a small generator you don't have to run it constantly.
We don't seem to lose power in CT much any more. I went out and bought a 7500 watt generator 4 years ago and haven't lost power for more than an hour since.
Where in central CT are you? I'm in Colchester.

Greg H

 

[begreen]

I'd go for a freestander. Lower installation costs, no fans needed, back up for cooking if needed, and quiet.

A built in is going to have the cost of the fireplace, wiring, carpentry, insulation, proprietary flue, and finishing work.

 

[Gooserider]

Hi eveyone... been a while since I've been here. I have narrowed my options to a free-standing wood stove or a new construction fireplace (ie, pre-fabbed with a hearth built around it). From what I've read the new pre-fabbed fireplaces are pretty efficient, is that the case?

I haven't been to a local vendor yet, what does a fireplace cost to install? I don't have ANYTHING. No chimney, no pre-existing fireplace. I would need to put in a chimney (masonry chimney not necessary) and the stove/fireplace, and the hearth (if doing a pre-fabbed firebox).

Any thoughts on a ballpark figure?

Thanks, steve

The new fireplaces CAN be efficient, but many are NOT, you need to be extremely careful about what you get.... Essentially there are EPA listed heating units and there are "EPA Exempt" fireboxes that are intended for decorative use only and will probably be net heat loss producers. You are probably looking at considerably more cost to do a fireplace w/ no existing structure as you will need to build the entire enclosure and chimney chase setup as well as the hearth, etc.

A free standing stove will probably be more efficient and a better heater, and cost considerably less to install... You would need to build a non-combustible hearth, possibly with some extra insulation under it depending on the stove. You MIGHT want to build a set of "clearance reduction" wall shields behind it, and you will need to install a Class A chimney setup - but that won't need a chase...

I can't really give numbers as there are too many variables to say right now - however it is probably pretty safe to say that your installation cost will pretty much stay the same regardless of what stove you get, so the only real big variable will be what kind of stove you get. I would probably guess that if you have a typical house, on the order of $3K - roughly split between the chimney, the hearth and shields, and labor. A stove is more variable depending on model, brand, size, etc. but guess around $2K as an initial figure...

A pre-fab firebox would probably work about the same, where the costs for the install won't change as much as the cost of the unit itself, but as I said, I think you'll be looking at considerably more money.

Gooserider

 

[The Dali Lima]

Well, I think I'm going to go with a free-stending stove with a fake fireplace built around it. I like the idea that I could cook on the stove if need-be, and could esily replace the stove if defective, needs to be fixed. Plus, with the fireplae surround I still get teh mantle that my wife wants... I am going to visit a local place this week to get an idea on general costs.

My father and I are going to build the majority of the surround... from what I've read many of the free standing soves are shielded on the back so my clearance needs should be minimal... correct? I'm looking at a stone fireplace facade.

This is the idea here:

(broken image removed)

 

[begreen]

Back and side clearances vary greatly from stove to stove. Assume nothing. Download the manual for the stove(s) you are considering. And remember, these are the minimum clearances. There's no harm in exceeding them for greater peace of mind.

 

[Highbeam]

My Heritage is a soapstone stove and similar to your photo. With a rear heatshield I can place the stove back 7" from combustibles. That's close. Really close.

 

[Gooserider]

Yes, some stoves are well shielded in the back which reduces the clearances SOME, but not a great deal. You can also greatly reduce clearance requiremennts by using a "clearance reduction shield" - essentially a barrier made of non-combustible material (brick, metal plate, cement board, etc.) spaced an inch away from any combustible wall.

However some clearances will STILL be required, rear, each side, and overhead, as well as clearances around the stove pipe itself - the exact measurements will be different for each stove model - however the manuals for nearly all stoves are available at the manufacturer websites so you can look up the requirements for the models you are interested in. BTW, I think Pacific Energy stoves tend to have lower clearances than most.

You may find a problem as well with your "fake fireplace" idea - this would be an "alcove install" which not all stove makers allow, and which will have very stringent requirements for materials, clearances, etc. However again this is a question of checking manuals to see if you can find something that will fit within your design ideas....

I agree that picture (I believe from the Woodstock catalog?) is neat, but there are a few problems with it...

1. Those pictures are "Photoshopped" and often don't represent actual, real live installations. As such many catalog photos don't actually comply with codes and may show UNSAFE installation practices... (I think they are crowding their front clearances especially in that photo)
2. That fireplace the stove is in is probably an existing masonry fireplace - as such it's going to be non-combustible and have far lower clearance requirements. In addition the stove appears to be sitting mostly in front of it.
3. I think it's a picture of a gas model, not a wood burner.... (therefore has different requirements)

What some folks have done that may get sort of what you want, is to build a hearth and clearance reduction wall out of brick, and put a shelf around the top of the clearance wall, above the required ventilation space (covered w/ expanded steel grates to make it look good...) As long as you are careful to maintain the needed clearances - I'd even go for a few inches extra - this would give your wife the desired mantle equivalent while avoiding the hassles of an alcove install.

Gooserider

 

[Wet1]

One other option I haven't seen thrown out is a coal stove (which can also burn wood). Coal certainly has it's benefits (burns hotter, longer, and usually cleaner) so that might be worth looking into as well.


One other thing that's worth mentioning is burning wood can be a good amount of work... even if you buy the wood. If you're planning on supplying your own wood, be prepared to get dirty and a lot of sweat.

If you want something you can load and walk away from for more than 8 hours, gas, coal or pellets might be a much better fit for you.

 

[Gooserider]

One other option I haven't seen thrown out is a coal stove (which can also burn wood). Coal certainly has it's benefits (burns hotter, longer, and usually cleaner) so that might be worth looking into as well.

Far as I know, there are NOT any current stoves that are EPA certified to be both wood and coal burners... In the past, there were stoves that were allegedly designed to do both, but most did one or the other well and the other badly, as the two fuels have different design requirements and what works well for one does not work for the other.

These days what I see reported is that coal is very regional - in "coal country" such as PA and WV, it can be very cost effective as well as a highly efficient choice... If you aren't in coal country, it can be a problem to get a cost effective supply of fuel.

One other thing that's worth mentioning is burning wood can be a good amount of work... even if you buy the wood. If you're planning on supplying your own wood, be prepared to get dirty and a lot of sweat.
If you want something you can load and walk away from for more than 8 hours, gas, coal or pellets might be a much better fit for you.

A larger firebox woodstove CAN give more than 8 hours on a load, especially a catalytic model - we quite regularly get about 10 on our VC CAT Encore, running it moderately hard. (and 12-14 hours on the lowest setting)

However I agree a cordwood stove is a lot of work to keep fed, and is a good substitute for the health club if you process your own wood.... Gas, pellets, and coal are all easier, but are more energy infrastructure dependent, and more expensive to use... The entire question is one of trade-offs - you can't have everything, so what is most important to you?

Gooserider