Getting the NC30 to heat as well as the old Defiant

[mywaynow]

Both a continuation and refining of prior thread on stove top temps of the NC30.

Working to try and get the new 30 to provide heat at a similar fashion the the Defiant 1A it replaced. I have made changes to burning techniques based on feedback here and have been able to determine some ways to change the environment of the space to assist as well. House space to be heated is about 2000 sq ft., and is a Cape. Stove located at East end of basement at the walk in door. 20+ ft class A 6 inch pipe outside, with about 7 feet of single wall inside having 1 90 degree elbow. Was having trouble keeping the house over 65 during recent cold snap where lows were 18 at night with high winds. Biggest improvements so far were to use the blower and to segregate the basement into heated and non-heated area. Stairwell in the dividing point 60/40 heated/non. Last night loaded fully with coals to front e/w then 2 large splits e/w behind coals to provide even surface, then loaded n/s balance of wood. Went to 450 then shut down to 35% on primary air. 630 this morning it was 72 inside, 38 outside. Good result but softened by the increase in outside temp. Had most of the 2 logs left that were on the bottom row. Rearranged them and let them burn for an hour and loaded all large splits to hopefully burn slow all day as the temps are up in the high 40s today. Was going to put the Defiant back into service after fighting with the 30 for a week +, but I am going to await the next cold snap to see how the new methods work.

 

[pen]

Just like you found w/ the E-W logs left in the morning, this thing burns slower when wood is loaded in that direction.

For the coldest weather I use my ash rake and push all coals and ash to the back 1/2 of the stove. Then I pull just the coals (as much as possible) to the front of the stove to fill in the void so that the coals are in the front, ash to the back, and the coal / ash base is level across the bottom of the stove. Then I load the stove N-S, no E-W logs at all.

Also, if the ash/coal base is below the dog house air, I'll even use the dog house or the front lip of the stove as a step to set the logs on. That allows good air circulation under the wood at the very front of the stove and helps when I really need the heat.

Loaded like this and getting the stove top to 750 degrees + consistently, I have ZERO problems coming back to the stove 10-12+ hours later and loading on coals. Actually, if it's really cold and I wake up at 3am to go to visit the head, I'll head to the stove and simply open the air to wide open. Then, come wake up time the coals have been burning as hot as they can for a few hours and have burned down to make good room for another full load.

pen

 

[Huntindog1]

If you're needing more heat. I would let the stove top temp get higher before you throttle down.

As that stove holds alot more wood than my stove , over 1 cubic foot more , and you should not have any issue with not having coals in the morning for restart.

My stove usually has about 5 medium sometimes 6 medium splits (Approx 4"-5" size) and I always have enough coals, sometimes too many.

Your stove top temp needs to be higher to get the higher efficiency out of these non-cat stoves.

You might try letting it get to 500-550 degrees then throttle down.

 

[sebring]

mywaynow, Hows the stove working now that its cold out? I completely shut my 30 down for the season. My wood isnt seasoned and will take a year to get ahead on that situation. In the mean time im burning what I have in the older stove, and staying warm. Im not saying your wood isnt seasoned, but mine doesnt like to burn it..

 

[mywaynow]

At worst case the wood is 2 years c/s/s and tarped on top. It takes to fire just fine. Saw good stove temps and got long burns, just been fighting the process of getting the house up to 70. Since the mild weather has moved in, 45 highs lows 29, I have been running small loads 2 - 3 times a day maintaining good temps in the house. The days when I could not keep up it was windy and mid 20s. Having sectioned off 1/3 of the basement the way it was last winter (lost walls/doors in flood last fall) I believe the task will be more manageable. Also have found great improvement using the blower. Don't know when the next cold snap will come, but looking forward to testing the system again.

 

[mywaynow]

House at 68 this morn, got to 25 last night. Popped 3 splits on the coals and up to 70 in 60 minutes.

 

[wkpoor]

I was thinking to myself as I read all the posts surrounding your problem. I know 2 people with Defiants and after visiting there homes I didn't think that stove put off very much heat. OK for the room they were in but not anything near enough to heat a house. The one guy said "man feel that heat" as I held my hands almost touching the stove top. I said nope not at all. I told him you wouldn't even be able to stand this close to the Nashua without burning your pant leg and here I am almost touching the cast that the thermometer said was 500 degrees. So knowing how well the Englander can heat I question how the Defiant can out do it.

 

[Woody Stover]

Don't know about the 30, but a guy down the road about half a mile runs a Defiant. If I stand within ten feet of the stove for any length of time, I have to start peeling off clothes. That thing is a blowtorch!

 

[mywaynow]

Until you have stood in front of one that is cooking, you won't understand. They radiate heat forward at incredible levels. I plan to try and introduce a more modern reburn system into the Defiant when I rebuild it.

 

[pen]

Until you have stood in front of one that is cooking, you won't understand. They radiate heat forward at incredible levels. I plan to try and introduce a more modern reburn system into the Defiant when I rebuild it.

My fisher was the same way. It would cook you out but it also burned about 25% more wood. I really am bewildered by what you are finding here.

My old stove could bring the house from 60-70 in an hour. That was a good thing, since I came home to a 60 degree house regularly in that it was stone cold and I had to start a fresh fire every evening.

With the 30 I come home to a 65 degree house and it still takes an hour to get things up to 70, however, I'm starting from coals now and burning much less wood.

pen

 

[DexterDay]

Whats your Max stove top temp you try to achieve?

Shutting down as early as you do, may not reach a high stove top temp. Right now, mine is just coming off of 750* and settling at 700*. Full load of Ash and Silver Maple (Ash on bottom/Maple on top).

650* is a pretty average temp with the 30. At least in the short time I have had it. It sees 700*-750* daily. Then sticks to about 650* (give or take).

The Tel-Tru thermo was the best investment I made. It tells me what the Max temp is after every load. I have to dial the needle back, but when I get home, I can see where it stopped and then backed off. Its max temp is 750*, but the needle goes past that. Here it is just shy. Casing was black when I bought it and it is now a copper color. Pretty......

 

[mywaynow]

I did not have an expectation of more heat with the 30. It was mostly a decision based on consumption. I am seeing a reduction around 30-40%, best I can tell. I felt the 30 could heat the house as well based on research. Things are better but the outside temps are still above average.

 

[Huntindog1]

Wood has a certain amount of BTU's per cubic foot. The NC-30 is more than 76% efficient vs older stoves that are like 30% efficient.

So just looking at that alone tells you the newer stoves can get more heat out of your wood if you operate it correctly.

If you get the heat built up in these stoves they will perform.

Sounds like your draft is too strong and your keeping the stove cooler so your not burning the smoke gases efficiently.

Its a hard concept to grasp but you got to get the heat built up in the stove and they will burn smoke with very little air going into the stove. Notice I did not say burning wood, If you keep the temps low in the stove , like reducing the air intake before the heat builds up in the top of the stove your basically turning the stove into more of a wood burner in a stove with very restricted air designed for burning smoke gases. As once that stove top is like 500 to 600 degrees and you got a feel for it that the coals and wood are going good enough you reduce the air and it should maintain those temps for you until the logs completely out gas. Then 50% of your heat is left in the hot logs that are starting to turn into coals.

But from your descriptions sounds like a few things could be happening. Too much draft will keep your stove cool as in flush your heat up the flue. Many have found that closing a manual pipe damper a little will let the heat build and stay for constant once you have reduced the air intake. This is because the secondary tube air are no controlled when you close down the air intake. So the manual flue damper is adjusting that slightly if you have too much draft. As once you have the heat built up and you turn the stove into a smoke burner very little air intake is needed much much less than old wood stoves that are wood burners and all the smoke gases go up the flue.

Or you might not be loading the stove full enough as the nc-30 is a huge 3.5 cubic foot box , plus it has alot of head room in this large fire box. That means you got to get that wood stacked in there high close to the secondary air tubes as open space will make it hard to get the heat built up in these stoves and get it built up quick before you burn up all your big splits that are needed for the long burn time. People have report like 11-13 hours reload times on this huge stoves that holds alot of wood. My stove is much smaller and I have gotten 10 hour reloads with less wood.

Hows the glass doing on your stove is it getting build up on it, if so how often do you have to clean it?
How long does it usually take to get your stove heated up and air intake reduced down so you can go to bed or leave for work?
Have you installed your damper yet?

 

[Mrs. Krabappel]

I agree with Pen. Your 30 is not functioning properly

 

[Huntindog1]

Dexter,

I wonder with these NC-30's because a big 3.5 cubic foot box if the stoves sweet spot is to run a little hotter to compensate for the extra wood load and area as when the wood burns down there is alot more open space being made.

Plus with all that extra wood load you can run it hotter and still have plenty of coals for reload 8,9,10 hours later.

 

[DexterDay]

This is a little bit later. Showing all 3 thermos. The Condar double wall probe is reading just about 400* (borderline yellow and orange zone).

All 3 of these side by side read very close. I had a Chimgaurd and a Homesaver model that I put on my pellet stoves because of inaccurate readings.

 

[pen]

Dexter,

I wonder with these NC-30's before a big 3.5 cubic foot box if the stoves sweet spot is to run a little hotter to compensate for the extra wood load and area as when the wood burns down there is alot more open space being made.

Plus with all that extra wood load you can run it hotter and still have plenty of coals for reload 8,9,10 hours later.

That's exactly what I find (considering the draft I have). If I load this firebox up, I NEED to set the air so that the stove top gets to 750 or even 800 if I plan on having the coals burnt down enough to reload w/out losing significant stove box space within the next 9-10 hours.

In really cold weather, when I get up to go release a few ounces of last night's drink of choice at 3am, I'll open the air up to full so that the coals burn down better by the time I crawl out of bed for the day and want heat again.

pen

 

[mywaynow]

Max temps have been 800 or just short of it. That has happened 2-3 times when the initial load went a bit too long before I closed down the primary. Today the house is 73 and it was 24 this morning. Full load in at 10 pm and had plenty to restart at 6 am. Loaded 2/3 full at 6 and it ran 450 with the blower on low, but it consumed most of the load in 4 hours, about 5-6 med splits. Primary was just inside the ash lip by an inch. I am going to load up again and shut off the fans to see if it can keep up now that the house is holding a good temp.

 

[Todd]

I think if you measure the usable fire box size you will probably find the Defiant much bigger than the Englander so it holds more wood and also releases much more radiant heat at the beginning of the heating cycle. The NC30 may be more efficient and release more BTU'S over a longer period but maybe your house calls for more in a shorter time to get the house temps up. Maybe you need to burn the NC30 hotter and sacrafice your burn times some to get the same heat you did with the Defiant?

 

[mywaynow]

Last night loaded the largest amount of wood to date. Decided on e/w to try and extend the burn. The house was 72 so I figured I could go that route of more time/less temp. 7 am the house was 65. Not going to go e/w when it's cold out again. Trying to catch up now. Picked up 2 degrees in 2 hours of active burn. Blower is running, air nearly wide open and top at 400. Blower really knocks down the temp.

 

[HotCoals]

yep..and the air almost wide open really throws the heat up your flue.

 

[Huntindog1]

What was left in the stove, any coals or lots of coals?

What setting did you have the air intake?

From the time you loaded it full how long before you got it shut down and ready to go to bed?

What was the temp, stove top and flue pipe when you started shutting it down?

 

[mywaynow]

How can you get the temp up without opening the air?? Double edged sword.

 

[HotCoals]

How can you get the temp up without opening the air?? Double edged sword.

I agree..it's a fine line.
But after getting the wood all charred up shut her down enough to get good secondary's and to retain heat in the box.
Transfer rate is important ..for sure with fans..which btw I don't need to use..maybe you do.
You may benefit from a flue damper..works for oldspark even though he gets upset when I say it's "old school"..lol.

 

[Huntindog1]

How can you get the temp up without opening the air?? Double edged sword.

I agree..it's a fine line.
But after getting the wood all charred up shut her down enough to get good secondary's and to retain heat in the box.
Transfer rate is important ..for sure with fans..which btw I don't need to use..maybe you do.
You may benefit from a flue damper..works for oldspark even though he gets upset when I say it's "old school"..lol.

I will one up that pipe damper suggestion.