Got my new oil budget amount . . .

[Jim K in PA]

They want $569/month for the coming season (July-June). I just called them and said "Thanks, but no thanks". That was based on a cap of $4.999/gallon and 1260 gallons useage (what I used last year). I would not have used that much this season, but it is moot, since my GARN should be here in a month.

Just thought I would share the "love".

 

[chrisfallis]

I am trying to justify a $15-20K investment in a Garn, but at my current natural gas cost of $3500 per year, it has a low WAF (wife acceptance factor). Payback in 5-6 years? What????? Our utility company said that gas was going up about 40% next winter, so that turns my payback into 3 or 4 years. That is an easier sell.

 

[mtaccone]

That is probably underestimating on natural gas increase mine is up 65% since January! Hate to see what it will be in November.

 

[Redox]

Yes, I am amazed how much NG has shot up in the last few months. Next winter should be interesting. Glad I'm not using very much of it any more!

Chris

 

[Willman]

Its all about "supply and demand" or so they say. Check out Pickens plan for NG for vehicle use. Where do you think the price will go then ?

Will

 

[Redox]

Its all about "supply and demand" or so they say. Check out Pickens plan for NG for vehicle use. Where do you think the price will go then ?

Will

Funny you should mention that! I have 2 cars that run on NG...

Chris

 

[Willman]

Funny you should mention that! I have 2 cars that run on NG…

Chris, Are they conversions or the new Honda ? If they are conversions did you do them or did you buy them turn key ? Do you have your own refueling set up ? Pickens says his fuel cost is $1.56 a gal.

Will

 

[Redox]

They're both Cavaliers, 1999 and 2001. They were a factory conversion done by IMPCO and run great! I bought one at a GSA auction and the other was a leftover from Piedmont Gas in NC. They have their drawbacks, but operating cost isn't one of them. They are sort of a science project for us as nobody knows what the future holds for CNG vehicles in the US. There's a ton of them overseas.

Right now, I am paying $2.40 a GGE from a BGE station near my house. I went back to the GSA auction to see if I could score a third one and they are now going for well over $10k for an 8yo econobox. Apparently the people in UT are willing to pay blood for them as their fuel cost from Questar is only $.70 a GGE. I have seen differing numbers on the definition of a GGE (gallon gas equivalent), but it is about 1.2 therms. Since our gas now costs about $1.50 a therm not including delivery and compression, the $2.40 is a good deal. I have looked HARD at buying a compressor, but it's hard to make a payback on something that costs between $5k and $10K. As long as BGE maintains those stations, I will probably stick with them. If you are crunching numbers, we get about 22 MPGe in the 2001 with a 4 speed automatic. This puts it in the neighborhood of the Prius in terms of fuel cost right now, but the 8-ball is a little fuzzy on the future. Obviously everybody switching to CNG would have a major impact.

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/Feg/noframes/17298.shtml

Sorry to run this thread off topic, but CNG is the only alternative fuel ever brought to market and develop any kind of track record. Our government was the impetus the last time. Maybe we can do it again? Right now, there are more public stations in MD to buy CNG than there are ethanol stations and we are lucky to have them at all. I'm not sure about the market on biodiesel here as I haven't looked for a while, but it isn't really taking off with the dieselheads I know.

Honda has had the GX since about 1998 or so and also has a great track record. I have read that they are pursuing it as they see it as the first step towards a hydrogen car. They have also been playing around with CNG/H2 blends for internal combustion, but it's all still very experimental.

Anybody want to buy a used Magic 8-ball???

Chris

 

[SE Iowa]

Chris,
$15-20K for a Garn? Are you starting from scratch (no baseboard/floor loops or heat exchangers)? That isn't just for the unit itself?

 

[JrCRXHF]

I was 500 a month for NG with a 30 year old boiler last year. So i was sold i was going to build a new garage and put a wood boiler in it. But then the wife decided that she is going to back and get her PHD so i think a new Gas boiler is going to be installed and the wood is going to have to wait about 3 years.

 

[Jim K in PA]

Chris,
$15-20K for a Garn? Are you starting from scratch (no baseboard/floor loops or heat exchangers)? That isn't just for the unit itself?

Bio - the 2000 gallon unit is about $15k, the 1500 gallon unit was about $12k. Price are rising every other month on anything made of steel. I got my order in before a $500 increase on July 1.

A basic install should not cost you another $5k, as long you already have your rads or coil/duct in place. I am putting my old oil fired boiler in series for this season. I'll decide where to go from there next year. I got the 2000 gallon unit since I am going to district heat my house, garage/workshop and a small greenhouse in the coming years.

 

[chrisfallis]

For a Garn installed in my garage I thought roughly $5K in addition to the base price of the unit. That would include the freight from Minnesota, the pex from the back corner of the garage to the inside of the house (about 100 feet), the trenching, the backfilling, the union labor rates to install heat exchangers on my hot water NG boiler and my hot air NG furnace, etc. Better to overestimate when presenting this to the investment approval committee than have her say later "you told me it would only be .......".

All of this compares nicely to a $5K bid we received last year for a replacement of the boiler and furnace that would leapfrog us about 60 years forward in technology. And by the way, the gravity feed air ducts are all in the wrong places for a forced air system, and have to be replaced with asbestos free new ductwork. That 100 year old boiler also has a cozy blanket of asbestos to be dealt with. We passed on that project.

 

[Jim K in PA]

For a Garn installed in my garage I thought roughly $5K in addition to the base price of the unit. That would include the freight from Minnesota, the pex from the back corner of the garage to the inside of the house (about 100 feet), the trenching, the backfilling, the union labor rates to install heat exchangers on my hot water NG boiler and my hot air NG furnace, etc. Better to overestimate when presenting this to the investment approval committee than have her say later "you told me it would only be .......".

I agree with your estimate, especially if you are hiring out the work. I am doing all of the install myself. I only have about 56' of trench to dig, but another 60' of PEX to run indoors to the GARN location behind the garage. I already have a tractor with a loader and backhoe, so digging will go rather quickly.

I am also going to incorporate a 150k Btu propane pool heater as a backup to the GARN, which will require a HX and additional pump and controls.

All of this compares nicely to a $5K bid we received last year for a replacement of the boiler and furnace that would leapfrog us about 60 years forward in technology. And by the way, the gravity feed air ducts are all in the wrong places for a forced air system, and have to be replaced with asbestos free new ductwork. That 100 year old boiler also has a cozy blanket of asbestos to be dealt with. We passed on that project.

I don't blame you. If you get the GARN, would you be supplying the existing oil fired unit?

 

[chrisfallis]

I have a natural gas fired hot air furnace and a natural gas boiler. Ducts and radiators in different parts of the 110 year old house. I wanted to put a water to air HX in the furnace and a water to water HX in the hot water system. I would just keep the existing heating equipment in place and provide supplemental BTUS from the Garn. Some of thiswork, like installing the Pex, I can probably do. The plumbing hook ups at the Garn and HX sides I would leave to a professional.

 

[SE Iowa]

I'm just getting bummed out about all the rising cost. Seems like my fear of jumping off the fence is costing more and more money every day. I wish I really knew how much it was going to cost to heat my home this next winter. I for one am sick of these commodity fund traders deciding what everything is "worth". That includes the food commodities that I grow. In the short run I may be getting ahead but in the long run, we all loose. I already have to borrow twice as much money to plant the same corn crop as I did 2 years ago. This isn't healthy for anyone.

 

[Jim K in PA]

I'm just getting bummed out about all the rising cost. Seems like my fear of jumping off the fence is costing more and more money every day.

I hear you, biomass. I knew it would be untenable for us to stay with oil heat. We had to refinance our HELC to get enough money to buy the GARN, but it will be recouped in 3 seasons. Luckily we have the strength, room and the equipment to make the conversion over to wood. I feel VERY sorry for folks who are stuck paying two or three times last year's price for heating.

I wish I really knew how much it was going to cost to heat my home this next winter.

You do, or at least you can figure it out. What are you using for heat now? Oil? NG? Propane?

I for one am sick of these commodity fund traders deciding what everything is "worth". That includes the food commodities that I grow. In the short run I may be getting ahead but in the long run, we all loose. I already have to borrow twice as much money to plant the same corn crop as I did 2 years ago. This isn't healthy for anyone.

They certainly are part of the puzzle, but not the only piece. We only have 10 acres, so we are not "real" farmers, but my neighbor raises beef cattle on about 130 acres, and he is having trouble keeping up. Fertilizer costs have doubled. All his primary tractors run on diesel, as do his pickups and such. Has the price of beef doubled? No, at least not yet.

The next couple of years are going to be rough for a lot of people.

 

[MButkus]

I just bought my 12th year of heating fuel for my 1600 sq ft NJ home. $540 for 2 tons of pellets (delivered and stacked), and I need to get my 200 gallons of oil for the furnace (hot water baseboard but it basically just heats my hot water). Electric is $160 a month (winter) and that's for electric dryer, range, oven.
That's it.


Just had a friend tell my her propane bill will be $540 on payment.
She's now asking about my pellet stove.

 

[muncybob]

Things must be a bit more expensive in Joisy than here...our elec right now is about $45/mo and will go to around $110/mo in winter for the same appliances. I was in Tractor Supply over the weekend and they just got a load of pellets in so I inquired...$219/ton but you must deliver yourself. $540/mo for propane...WOW If I do go through another heating season without a wood boiler I figure I'll spend around $360/mo for heat/dhw(if it was on an annual budget). Wouldn't it be cheaper(in the long run) to heat your hot water with pellets?

 

[SE Iowa]

Jim K,

There is no such thing as heating oil out here (believe it or not). I'm on NG, but the big three are NG, Propane and electric. Some people use wood but mostly as a supplement and even a very few are starting to use coal. I was "lucky" that a high pressure/high volume NG pipeline runs on my farm. When I built my house I purposely placed it within 150' of the line so that they could tap into it (termed a "farm-tap"). NG is alot cheaper that LP but it is rising and also has the issue that it can not be contracted at a set price, meaning that it is subject to wide swings in cost d/t commodity traders and other market factors.

My biggest "problem" is that my NG useage is low compared to most new homes. I have an extremely well insulated home that does well at both extremes in temps. I only spent $1064 for electricity for all of last year and I'll bet not much more than $1200 per year on NG (which includes the ~$20/ month in NG delivery and fee charges. I heat/cool 2850 sf above ground and another 1750 below grade (but basement not heated to "liveable" temps= 60-65F year round). Our temps get to 95F in the summer and minus 20F at the extremes of each season. Our winters are really only 3 months long though.

Eventually even higher fuel prices will even hurt me so I'm trying to think long term here if an investment in such a system would be worth it or not? I thought it would when I built such an efficient home and that paid off. I'm a pessimist by nature so I don't see things getting better.

 

[Jim K in PA]

Jim K,

There is no such thing as heating oil out here (believe it or not). I'm on NG, but the big three are NG, Propane and electric. Some people use wood but mostly as a supplement and even a very few are starting to use coal. I was "lucky" that a high pressure/high volume NG pipeline runs on my farm. When I built my house I purposely placed it within 150' of the line so that they could tap into it (termed a "farm-tap"). NG is alot cheaper that LP but it is rising and also has the issue that it can not be contracted at a set price, meaning that it is subject to wide swings in cost d/t commodity traders and other market factors.

My biggest "problem" is that my NG useage is low compared to most new homes. I have an extremely well insulated home that does well at both extremes in temps. I only spent $1064 for electricity for all of last year and I'll bet not much more than $1200 per year on NG (which includes the ~$20/ month in NG delivery and fee charges. I heat/cool 2850 sf above ground and another 1750 below grade (but basement not heated to "liveable" temps= 60-65F year round). Our temps get to 95F in the summer and minus 20F at the extremes of each season. Our winters are really only 3 months long though.

Eventually even higher fuel prices will even hurt me so I'm trying to think long term here if an investment in such a system would be worth it or not? I thought it would when I built such an efficient home and that paid off. I'm a pessimist by nature so I don't see things getting better.

Biomass, if you are heating/cooling 3k sq. ft. of home for a total utility cost of under $2500/year, you are in GREAT shape, my friend. Yes, fuel/utility costs are going to rise, then plateau, then rise again, etc. Yes, eventually even YOU will be hurt by the prices, but I also think you have a LOT more breathing room than most people.

Chin up, don't be so pessimistic! You are doing well!

By the time you really need to rid yourself of the NG, "Mr. Fusion" will be available for you to swap into your existing NG furnace . . . ;-)

As to a wood alternative, do you have the resources? Do you own your own substantial wood lot? If not, and you really want to go that route, the best investment right now may be in a 30+ acre parcel of woodlot. You can always find a supplier of an appropriate wood gasification unit, but if you get hung up on fueling it, you are back in the same boat as NG or oil.

Just a thought.