Got ripped off: urgently needing advice.

[Brew]

Just got off the phone with Harman and I’m concerned. What do suggest I do in this situation? For you dealers and refurbishers, is this anywhere near business as usual?

We wanted an Accentra 52i but it was a little steep for our budget. A dealer worked with us and found a unit in back that had been returned and refurbished, saying the customer switched models after a few burns because it was too much heat for the home. The salesman also said some part had been replaced due to factory recall thought he couldn’t remember which. In his words, their service techs had gone through the entire unit and declared it effectively new, including preserving the original warranty to begin the day a new customer buys it. They would sell it for $599 under MSRP (closer, at least, to what we budgeted). We paid a $500 deposit on the insert and ordered 7 tons of pellets. Install is currently scheduled for Sep 2.

I called Harman to verify that warranty by the serial number on our invoice. What they had to say alarmed me:

1.) They only build units upon receiving the purchase order and this unit was built November 21, 2013.
2.) The original customer filed a claim saying the unit wasn’t functioning, so they replaced the control board four times and the ESP twice.
3.) After still not functioning, the unit was removed from the original customer’s house on May 12, 2014.
4.) Warranties are not transferrable.
5.) The dealer should have returned this unit to the factory to be rebuilt, issued a new S/N, and granted a new warranty.

This sale (including our deposit) was going to total about $5350 after a $100 Harman coupon. It includes the black model insert, OAK, installation, liner and other parts, and local building permit. Looks like they were cutting losses at my expense because they were too lazy to ship it back to the factory. Now I’m starting to question whether they threw frivolous things onto the invoice as well.

Someone on this forum said Harman appliances can’t be discounted over 10% MSRP or the dealer risks losing certification with Harman. That’s a max $409.90 discount for this model by Harman’s $4099 MSRP. I thought this curious refurbishing history allowed me to get by with $599 off, but clearly it wasn’t worth it. I would probably go to another dealer if I 1.) I hadn’t paid a deposit and 2.) there were more dealers nearby.

See the attached invoice lacking only the sales tax. Does anything on there look like unnecessary upsell and how should I proceed with this dealer? Just pay the $599 difference to MSRP (or even just the $189.10 difference to the maximum discount off MSRP) and demand a new unit? I have the original owner's dates and claim numbers, so there's no denying what happened. I need to resolve this before shoulder season!

 

[nayslayer]

I'd pay the roughly 10% and demand a new unit. Whatever they say at this point still won't ease your mind.

 

[newf lover]

The dealer has already lied to you about the unit, why would you think he would be trustworthy in the future? I would demand my money back, cancel the pellet order, and run to another dealer. You have proof he tried to rip you off. I would threaten to go to whatever consumer protection department if he does not comply. With a Harman you are totally dependent on the dealer for service. I think blatantly lying about the history of your stove will tell you all you need to know about the dealer.

 

[briansol]

Why do you need 3' of OAK, but 25' of exhaust pipe? something isn't right there...... is he going to go through the brick out the back for intake air? (HORRIBLE IDEA) that needs to go up and out and under the exhaust just the same as the exhaust.

Whatever happens, make sure you see the 'warranty' in writing and signature.

If it blew 4 control boards, it probably has a wiring short somewhere, and after juggling around install it may show up again... or not.

If it was my house, I'd go get my money back. I worked with the worst dealer in my area because I didn't know better at the time, and I regretted it ever since.

There's gotta be another dealer willing to come out to your house, even if there's a $50 fuel surchage

 

[ducker]

you may be stuck... Perhaps if you can get the dealer to confirm that they will support that stove as if it is under warranty you'll be ok.
Has this dealer been in business long? Perhaps you can push back on them and let them know what you found out on the stove itself. If they are a newer dealer - they may not care about their reputation. Good luck - let us know what happens.

 

[ttdberg]

The dealer has already lied to you about the unit, why would you think he would be trustworthy in the future? I would demand my money back, cancel the pellet order, and run to another dealer. You have proof he tried to rip you off. I would threaten to go to whatever consumer protection department if he does not comply. With a Harman you are totally dependent on the dealer for service. I think blatantly lying about the history of your stove will tell you all you need to know about the dealer.

+1 - The quality of the dealer is just as important as the stove itself. You effectively just did for this pellet stove what carfax does for used autos, and caught the dealer in a lie. Take your business elsewhere.

 

[alternativeheat]

Hmm, wondering if this is an in store or dealer warranty. Obviously it is not a manufacturers warranty. In your shoes I would definitely bring out everything you have found out to the dealer. Make him explain the whole workings of this thing. And if you are not satisfied after that, then start making demands ( money back, what ever it is you are after in this deal). We have two Harman dealers locally and they work tight with Harman, they would be right on the phone with them in front of you if they felt they didn't know something etc. Iron this out right away, it's going to eat at you till you feel satisfaction.

 

[moey]

Get your money back. Dont settle for anything less. The last thing you want is to pay all this money and have a nice brick in the corner of the house.

 

[deercamp]

Get your money back it's a no brainer. Why take on a headache waiting to happen like this.

 

[john193]

Personally I would have raised an eyebrow when the dealer said that it was returned for being too hot...

Just took a look at your invoice. Everything is very much dealer prices. You wanted to save money but you are buying everything from the dealer. Why? I got my 25 foot SS liner online for 200 shipped, which included the applicable adaptor and cap. 795 for delivery and install is on the high side. Most dealers in my area go for 450-550.

 

[alternativeheat]

I think you need to tell the dealer everything you have here. The fact that it has not been back to the factory is irrelevant if
he is guarantying the stove himself. Maybe he hasn't been misleading at all.
You should point out to him that you are concerned that the stove may be unreliable and will he give an ironclad guarantee to keep it going? I agree with John that the prices seem high but who can tell. I also agree with Alternativeheat.
Talk to the dealer, give him a chance. If you dont like what he says then ask for your money back. If he is decent he will give it back, if he wont then just look at it as expensive way of finding out that you shouldn't deal with him.

Right, the dealer took the stove back from the last guy who owned it. Why would he deal differently with the OP ? Maybe the terms of contract went too long for him to send this unit back to Harman, maybe he kept it in house to dig in and get to the bottom of the original problem. Either way though, if the OP is not satisfied with any of these answers he should bail on this deal if he can. But it may well be explained to satisfaction, have a little faith first. If no good then good bye.

Around here the pricing is in line with one dealer we have and a bit high with the other. I know that we could have done better on the install materials online for sure but if anything went sideways I wanted dealer support so paid the big bucks. In hind sight, now that I have done the job I would go online for those materials but then it felt better the way we did it..

 

[whitetailscout]

I would be walking away from that deal, and fast. You paid a deposit, that should be completely refundable. If not, you have enough ammo to make his life miserable with the BBB. He is selling you a lemon, plain and simple. 7 tons of pellets sounds like 2 winter's worth of pellets for 1 stove, any reason you bought so many?

 

[TimfromMA]

7 tons of pellets sounds like 2 winter's worth of pellets for 1 stove, any reason you bought so many?

This is his first winter with pellets. He had said that some people tell him they burn 3 - 4 tons, others have said 4 - 6. Just to be safe, he went with the upper end of the scale and added a ton as a buffer. After a couple of seasons of burning, hell know what his particular needs are and adjust his pellet supply to fit.

 

[whitetailscout]

This is his first winter with pellets. He had said that some people tell him they burn 3 - 4 tons, others have said 4 - 6. Just to be safe, he went with the upper end of the scale and added a ton as a buffer. After a couple of seasons of burning, hell know what his particular needs are and adjust his pellet supply to fit.

Better safe than sorry I guess. That would basically give him 2 bags a day for 5-6 months for 1 stove.

 

[TimfromMA]

He and I live near each other and last year, I averaged 0.86 bag per day from Oct - May

 

[newf lover]

I think you need to tell the dealer everything you have here. The fact that it has not been back to the factory is irrelevant if
he is guarantying the stove himself. Maybe he hasn't been misleading at all.
You should point out to him that you are concerned that the stove may be unreliable and will he give an ironclad guarantee to keep it going? I agree with John that the prices seem high but who can tell. I also agree with Alternativeheat.
Talk to the dealer, give him a chance. If you dont like what he says then ask for your money back. If he is decent he will give it back, if he wont then just look at it as expensive way of finding out that you shouldn't deal with him.

But he lied He told the OP it got returned because the previous owner said it produced too much heat for his house. There was no recall, it was a lemon stove! He can't remember probably going on 6 service calls, and dealing with what was probably a PO'd buyer all last winter? I don't believe it. Now if he had said, yes there were a lot of problems with this stove, but we have now gone over the whole thing and it's working fine, and we will personally back this up with a warranty, fine. I would not give this guy another cent.

 

[Mt Bob]

I think you need to tell the dealer everything you have here. The fact that it has not been back to the factory is irrelevant if
he is guarantying the stove himself. Maybe he hasn't been misleading at all.
You should point out to him that you are concerned that the stove may be unreliable and will he give an ironclad guarantee to keep it going? I agree with John that the prices seem high but who can tell. I also agree with Alternativeheat.
Talk to the dealer, give him a chance. If you dont like what he says then ask for your money back. If he is decent he will give it back, if he wont then just look at it as expensive way of finding out that you shouldn't deal with him.

I have to disagree with part of what you said.Would you buy a new truck without a mfg. warrenty?If it was going to be an"in house" warr. it should be listed on the bill of sale.By listing the harman rebate,which he knows he will not see,he is implying mfg. warr.Also,if this is how poorly they do bussiness,would you trust any repair?Get money back and run!I do believe enviro has same warr. setup,probably got tired of being ripped off by incompetent dealers,reason stove must go back.This is not a $900 china stove.

 

[Bioburner]

Has had a very dark past and dealer was not upfront on its history or maybe was incompetent in its repair in the first place or its factory backing. Three strikes! You did due diligence and Harman was upfront of the stoves history. For good or bad.
Sic em

 

[Mt Bob]

Whoah! Better give the chew stick back!

 

[joescho]

I have to disagree with part of what you said.Would you buy a new truck without a mfg. warrenty?If it was going to be an"in house" warr. it should be listed on the bill of sale.By listing the harman rebate,which he knows he will not see,he is implying mfg. warr.Also,if this is how poorly they do bussiness,would you trust any repair?Get money back and run!I do believe enviro has same warr. setup,probably got tired of being ripped off by incompetent dealers,reason stove must go back.This is not a $900 china stove.

I agree with all that has been said, and the dealer was not completely honest with the OP, however we have to keep in mind that the OP was offered this stove because whathe wanted was out of his budget range. I'm not saying that in that case you take what you get, but you're going to get offered something that will help the delaer and not necessasarily the buyer.

 

[vinny11950]

Brew,

the price of the stove is still high considering all the problems it has had. if it was much cheaper and you felt handy enough to trouble shoot and fix it then maybe buying it would be a good idea.

plus the dealer already lied to you about the warranty and evidence points to the dealer not knowing how to fix it, which means you will have to get service from somewhere else when he can't fix it once installed. you will call Harman frustrated at the service and they will say it's not under warranty, "good luck, maybe we can have another dealer look at it but it will cost you."

good job getting the back story on the stove, it will save you much frustration.

 

[Brew]

Huge thanks to all of you for the excellent ideas and advice. Is that canine for hire, Bioburner?

The most reasonable next step sounds calmly sitting down with the salesman and saving my words like "ripped off" and "demand" for a (brief) bit. Have a little faith, as alternative heat says, and ask him how to reconcile these findings. It might be a simple clarification like a dealer's warranty rather than a manufacturer's as chickenman says. After all, they stood behind the unit for the previous customer and are willing to put it into another home. They must have a lot of confidence that it runs well now. Whatever they say, it goes in writing and the BS meter is on high alert this time. I still don't like housing a refurbished lemon for $599 savings. I'm more inclined pay the difference for a brand-new unit. Pain of wallet but peace of mind, though too much of that and you'll lose both.

I am still open to working with this dealer. They have over 30 years experience with stoves and a good reputation. I've had complete confidence in them until now and hope this was just a salesman getting too excited and not doing his research. He's only worked there four months and looks to be getting the rookie mistakes out of his system. Like joescho says, I did ask for something creative/exceptional when using "I need X but can only pay Y" as my bargaining strategy. I can always escalate to the owner and, worst-case scenario, they'll refund the deposit except for the $180 charge for the in-home evaluation they performed. There's another dealer in town but they quoted even higher for the same job. I assume most of the price discrepancies other posters note are due to regional market differences.

I wanted a fully dealer-installed gig so I could turn to them for anything that wasn't working. More expensive than DIY but all this makes me sleep better at night. Experience says I shouldn't trust myself to do big things right the first time. Again, trading pain of wallet for peace of mind.

7 tons of pellets sounds like 2 winter's worth of pellets for 1 stove, any reason you bought so many?

To expand on what Tim said, we just moved into this home in late March and can't afford, much less stomach, paying for primarily oil heat. We want to play it safe until we know the home's heating demands, especially for how little insulation we have. That's next year's project.

You guys have armed me with very good counsel. I'll do some legwork and report back.

 

[ttdberg]

Brew - Best of luck working this out with the dealer. I really hope this works to your satisfaction in the end. Looking forward to seeing your post with updates.
P.S. I would pay to have a seat in the room when you enlighten him as to your research findings Keep in mind it's possible he's seen this thread and could be preparing his response.

 

[Big papa]

That price does not seem to b discounted very much to me. Had my accentra52i installed in June complete dealer install with the brown enamel $5200. The price of the brown enamel finish is $400 more than the black that u ordered

 

[alternativeheat]

I would be walking away from that deal, and fast. You paid a deposit, that should be completely refundable. If not, you have enough ammo to make his life miserable with the BBB. He is selling you a lemon, plain and simple. 7 tons of pellets sounds like 2 winter's worth of pellets for 1 stove, any reason you bought so many?

May have lied may have been a misinformed sales person with short experience. At this point if it were me I would go right to the owner of the shop. Bailing is still in the cards as well. But my MO is to let someone/ a business explain the circumstances first and after that I'm either happy or the stinger goes on OT !