Harman PF100 Install

[Alain S. Prevost]

Fireside stove shop (broken link removed to http://www.firesidestoveshop.com/index.html) is here in Auburn, I believe he may be able to do the draft setting/measurement. I'll give him a call monday...if no luck then I'll talk to Scott, I just found his website, looks like quite the professional. The fan control should be mounted closest to the center as possible - usually the ash pan side due to ease of access....Hopefully with my fan control on the back side off center a bit should still get mixed/adequate sensing.

More of a guess and check for the fan cut in and out then huh? Thanks for the tips.

I stayed with the 1450 blower - I believe when I looked up the specs for the 3 speed the medium speed running amps were a touch higher. Although its a nice convenience to control the CFM a bit more with the 3 speed.

Anyone use an air to water (either radiator type heat exchanger or drill holes and run pipe through the pf100 heat exchanger area) to get radiant or heat domestic hot water??? How about the optional AC coil? If so, any issues with condensation?


Exoilburner ... You said you have an oil burner as well - How much has your PF100 offset the use of your oil burner?? What is everyone doing to heat their hot water tank? Mine is a zone off the Buderus oil...

Gotta grab some beers and get to work in the basement. Pics tonight.

 

[DexterDay]

I'll talk to Scott

Gotta grab some beers and get to work in the basement. Pics tonight.

Your gonna fit right in. . . .

Grabbin beers at 8:00 a.m..... Yep, welcome to the club

Your doing a great job on your install. My furnace is totally different, so my input may be swayed from your results. But my temps are set at 160° and 120° (give or take a little). Is the Harman controller made by Honeywell? Just wondering if it uses the same unit? Also my Distribution blower is much smaller at 800 CFM.

Good luck and Cheers!

 

[ekarlis]

If you have a hot water boiler & want to add a/c. Look into the ductless mini systems.
The indoor units hang near the ceiling & the outdoor unit handles 5-6 indoor units They
are also heat pumps that heat in the winter. You can turn off units in rooms that are not
occupied. I know that the heat pumps are not good for the New England areas, but the
a/c one would work great. Every home is different, so call a contractor & ask a lot of
questions.

 

[exoilburner]

Fireside stove shop (broken link removed to http://www.firesidestoveshop.com/index.html) is here in Auburn, I believe he may be able to do the draft setting/measurement. I'll give him a call monday...if no luck then I'll talk to Scott, I just found his website, looks like quite the professional. The fan control should be mounted closest to the center as possible - usually the ash pan side due to ease of access....Hopefully with my fan control on the back side off center a bit should still get mixed/adequate sensing.

More of a guess and check for the fan cut in and out then huh? Thanks for the tips.

I stayed with the 1450 blower - I believe when I looked up the specs for the 3 speed the medium speed running amps were a touch higher. Although its a nice convenience to control the CFM a bit more with the 3 speed.

Anyone use an air to water (either radiator type heat exchanger or drill holes and run pipe through the pf100 heat exchanger area) to get radiant or heat domestic hot water??? How about the optional AC coil? If so, any issues with condensation?


Exoilburner ... You said you have an oil burner as well - How much has your PF100 offset the use of your oil burner?? What is everyone doing to heat their hot water tank? Mine is a zone off the Buderus oil...

Gotta grab some beers and get to work in the basement. Pics tonight.

I use my PF100 exclusively. I only use my oil burner as a back-up heat source. The PF100 is like having a wood fireplace in every room; nice even wood heat.
When my oil burner kicks on rooms feel cool and when it cuts out it is almost too warm (after the oil guy readjusted the thermostat too). The PF100 works as advertised; room temperature stays very even. I believe it stays within a degree.

I wondered about heating the hot water tank with the pellet furnace but all the ideas in the posts I have seen didn't really get any traction. My hot water tank is electric; our electricity rates here in Washington State are pretty low by comparison.

 

[Alain S. Prevost]

I initially looked into the mini-split systems. For the capacity/load of my home and the unit(s) it'd need...and also needed to be 230/240volts...it'd be more of an electricity burden than pellets.
The included heat strip and reverse heat pump is ideal for mid eastern coast states for heating... They are however perfect for AC in the new england area for sure.

End of the day report:

Exhaust vent complete. No leaks. ExcelPellet PL type SS double lined Made in Canada .... really nice stuff. High type rtv silicone everything
Used high temp spray paint same color as my cedar siding - painted the wall thimble on the exterior side.
I bought a 'tee' a few weeks ago and didnt realize I can only mount it one direction....it looks useless where it is now, it was not my intention to have it like that. I'll also need another 12" section to raise it up a bit....however we don't get snow in that area of the house because of the eves and usual wind direction.

I added mastic on the plenum and the 6' takeoff from the plenum to the kitchen kickspace....I also have a manual damper in that line since the kickspace register will only have fixed blades on the grill.
Taping all joints that are set in mastic in the morning.

Installed the thermostat on first floor next to my oil thermostat.
For an MSRP of over $5,000 you'd think Harman would include a digital thermo...I understand why they dont though.

I am very impressed with Harman's installation instructions (Manual could be more technical) and ease of use for everything that came with the PF100...easy installing most everything thus far.

I, however, am not a fan of all the leaks the unit has. I turned on the air blower and a lot of air leaked from the corners and through the "HARMAN" window...whats up with that? I guess I don't need to run a takeoff from the main trunk to heat my basement ... it'll get enough hot air from these leaks on the pf100.

I got excited, and with disregard to what I was told today for the first burn (told to wait and check the draft)......I had to try it out. Loaded a bag of "Maine Choice" in the hopper and let 'er rip. Burns great...I found that the blower at 100degrees is too cool to move air through the house, almost has a chill to it. Although Im not done piping in the registers...so I'll mess with the fan control later this week.
Goal is to be done by this Friday.

Plumber scheduled in the morning....Pipes need to be rerouted and raised into the joists so I can install my return air line from the 1st floor down to the main return trunk. i don't feel like wasting time soldering and dealing with that.
I am doing a single return...middle of the house where I have cathedral ceilings...should be a good setup. I'll get pics of that tomorrow if/when Im done with the return.

For now, here's the work I did today....and my 2 year 150lb saint bernard. Excuse the mess in the outside area...landscape work in progress as well.
Suggestions/comments please.

 

[Alain S. Prevost]

I use my PF100 exclusively. I only use my oil burner as a back-up heat source. The PF100 is like having a wood fireplace in every room; nice even wood heat.
When my oil burner kicks on rooms feel cool and when it cuts out it is almost too warm (after the oil guy readjusted the thermostat too). The PF100 works as advertised; room temperature stays very even. I believe it stays within a degree.

I wondered about heating the hot water tank with the pellet furnace but all the ideas in the posts I have seen didn't really get any traction. My hot water tank is electric; our electricity rates here in Washington State are pretty low by comparison.

Thanks for the encouragement, Thank you! I can't wait to have the heat start pumping into all my living space rooms....!
I'll have to deal with burning 50gallons a month in oil for the hot water tank ... my wife loves to do laundry (hot washes) and my newborn needs all that hot water too!! yikes!

 

[sinnian]

Do yourself a favor and extend the vertical rise. You may "feel" that you have enough draft now, but if there is a power failure, and your generator does not kick on (or in time) you are going to see and smell just how leaky the PF100 is.

Personally I would run it past your roofline.

 

[sinnian]

Also call Steve at SIB's and order the remaining pellets from him. I personally like the MWP Softwoods, and Steve's prices include delivery.

(broken link removed)

 

[Ejectr]

I slipped a piece of glass into the door window from the outside and high temp siliconed it in place with a little room for expansion so it wouldn't crack. No more air out the window. I also went around the furnace enclosure and siliconed all the seams that leaked air. After that, you don't get any air leaking out. The radiant heat from the furnace itself will heat your basement and if you don't cover all that duct work you've installed with insulation, you will be losing a lot of heat to the basement there as well.

Where you mounted the thermostat....if you find that the temp in the room is several degrees off from your setting on the thermostat, try mounting it up on a couple pieces of Styrofoam as stand off spacers to the wall. The spongy, solid type Styrofoam, not the pebbly stuff. That worked for me and got me to about 1 degree difference and I trimmed that with the manual temp setting knob on the furnace control panel a little at a time until a digital thermometer in the same room as the thermostat and the temp set on the thermostat agreed.

You should try running your circulating fan on all the different speeds. Sometimes the highest is not the best. It may move the air around the house faster and get it up to temp faster, but it cools the air more than a slower speed as well.

You can hook a digital thermostat in series with the Harman thermostat so it runs more like an oil furnace...on to heat up and off when reached temp, but that will raise hell with your igniter always starting and stopping the fire. I think it also defeats the purpose of how the furnace is supposed to run. The digital will serve as a switch to complete the circuit for the Harman thermostat. Then when the set temp is reached, the digital will open thusly opening the circuit that the Harman has to the furnace through the digital. You would set the Harman to any temp that will allow it to turn on and burn. The actual control of burn/no burn will be the digital opening and closing when the set temp is reached or falls. I personally wouldn't do it, but it can be done.

 

[Alain S. Prevost]

Thanks for the tips & pointers with everything EJECTR and SINNIAN
I'll be giving Steve a call, thats a great deal and you cant beat delivery! Putting 1 ton in the back of the Avalanche isn't my favorite idea.

Got up at 5 this morning, Wife told me I had to work downstairs instead of sipping a coffee and watching the news. So...she motivated me to tape everything I had together over the mastic...took a solid 2 hours. I also sealed up the pf100.

I ran the furnace to get some confidence in myself and listen to the noises the furnace makes....Sometimes it seems like a pellet gets in the auger or feed chamber sideways and makes a good clunking noise.

Basement got 80 degrees in no time - I still have my main trunk open to the basement area. Thats 2600sq ft. with another 480sq ft garage (connected to basement area, daylight basement) that got up to 76 degrees...
I am very impressed with the Harman PF100, the heat is constant, hot, durable and dependable thus far.

I know its a horrible idea and shouldn't be done - But for my own knowledge I hit the furnace cut out switch (I installed external away from the furnace on a bulkhead near the boiler shut off) to simulate a power failure.
I wanted to do this to see how the combustion gases would act ... the smells and smoke I'd see...
Test was a success...the flue/vent was so warm that it continued to pour outside - little smokey near the burn pot area. I waited 5 minutes. Turned the unit back on and away we went - back to getting the house toasty warm.

Someone said earlier that I should insulate my duct work... I believe I should as well, the duct work is very warm/sightly hot. Lots of heat loss here...However the heat is rising into the joists area and my tile floor upstairs gets a radiant heat effect.

I will be discontinuing my takeoff from the main trunk to the basement supply register and the garage supply register. There will be sufficient radiant heat from the ductwork and the pf100 in the meantime to keep the garage at 70.

yesterday plumber rerouted some supply water lines in the overhead basement and my bar sink drain overhead .... So that I was able to install the return line to the uppermost area to keep head clearance.

Today I'll be working on finishing the return duct work and installing a few kickspace boots and round pipe....Pics tonight.....Thanks guys.

 

[Alain S. Prevost]

Got all the floor registers in - except for the kickspace grills.
Got the trunk line going through the partition.
Got some of the return air trunk tossed up....Cut some holes for the return air from first floor.
And picked up the rest of the duct work I ordered that finally came in.

 

[Alain S. Prevost]

See pics.
Hopefully a big day tomorrow installing all the takeoffs and boots....and finish the return air.

 

[mepellet]

Looks very nice! Nice to have different heating options isn't it?! Just curious how you did your heating load calculations? Did you do a block load for entire house and then divide the airflow among each room based on square footage?

 

[smoke show]

Your an effin machine Mr. Prevost.

 

[Eatonpcat]

Your an effin machine Mr. Prevost.

He needs a lesson on procrastination, givin' making lazy guys like me look bad!

Great looking work your doing!

 

[SmokeyTheBear]

Don't worry too much Eatonpcat as soon as he gets to be old like you he will be as lazy and slow as you also. Likely he may have a few more aches and pains than you do as well.

 

[Alain S. Prevost]

mepellet - I did a few different layouts - first I knew I was going to get the PF100 without a doubt to supplement my Buderus G215. With the upgraded mid-range blower (1450 cfm) on the pf100, I calculated not only for 1cfm/sq ft....but then to which rooms we are in the most during the day and to maximize cfm supply to that space if 50% of all registers/dapmpers are closed. I did this to create warm spots in the house if my wife/daughter were cold or just for comfort in the mornings, etc..I definitely oversized my ductwork by 20%supply and 34% on the return...but this is also to allow for one install - down the road if I add another supplemental forced air unit or if I add a bigger blower, or even if I install an AC coil, I took into account the growth potential of the system while still maintaining proper system integrity/running amps/efficiency.
Check out the layout sketch I did - nothing fancy ... and a lot of mistakes, it was my first draft.
But overall, 1cfm/sq ft on supply. on return air I just added 20% for the return air duct work size while maintaining an overhead clearance of 8'6" in my 9'6" basement to the bottom of the joists/pipes.

Today I spent most of the day with my family around the house....
However I was able to install the takeoffs to the den and master bedroom.
I also installed the return air duct - I made the return line - mastic everything this afternoon...tape tomorrow......For the return air, I punched through my subfloor between joists....using the area under my stairs as an "air box/plenum" just so I would NEVER hear a hum or hissing noise going through the return air grill. I wouldn't imagine I would anyways due to the proper sizing of the system, but oh well. I also have a filter prior to the blower...I will not have one on the return air grate. Total length of return air trunk is only 16' horizontals and verticals...so cleaning it down the road is no biggie. I'll be adding an access door/inspecting door on the return air trunk in a few months from now once my hands heal from all the sheet metal cuts from the burs and sharp edges.
Sorry the pics are dark, will get better ones soon.
Tomorrow I plan on getting at least three more supply takeoff lines done to the rest of the bedrooms..mastic them and clean the basement to find my tools.
Speaking of tools, my cordless dewalt tools have been a life saver...the grinder with a cut off wheel, saws-all and drill. I cheaped out (yes, cheaped out even after spending over $2500 in ductwork - I'll get a final number after I return a few extra pieces) and I never bought a shear cutting. I have 3 hand shears, but no pneumatic or electric....anyways, The dewalt grinder with the cut off wheel provided me with straight cuts, minimal burrs and it goes extremely fast cutting!!
For now, check out the progress. Thanks everyone for the encouragement, ideas and chatting!
I am embarrassed at the duct hangers and the quick takeoff install job....I'll get around to adjusting everything soon...for now here are the pics...first one is the basement/garage elbow to bring it back up to the ceiling...most of the others are my work on the return box I made to go between the floor joists (panning...kinda) and down to a takeoff into my line return line. This eliminated a lot of funky elbows, cutting wall studs/removing more drywall.

 

[Alain S. Prevost]

Looks very nice! Nice to have different heating options isn't it?! Just curious how you did your heating load calculations? Did you do a block load for entire house and then divide the airflow among each room based on square footage?

here's my first draft and quick sketch of the lines - I changed quite a bit since. The circle in the middle is a garage supply that has since been removed from the plans.
I used a "DUCTULATOR" and a chart online for proper CFM sizing and what a rectangle size correlates to as round size, etc...
On this sketch I did not include cfm/room...thats on another sheet. As well as the length of each pipe/trunk and the calculations for my losses around the bends and after each takeoff.
If you would like to see my sketches of anything else, let me know, I can scan some stuff and post it on here for you.
I want to say thanks for whoever tossed up the plenum sketch a while ago - I modified the dimensions...but same Idea, I kept the space for the hopper door to open and the plenum is huge!
Im trying to use no flex lines more than 6" in each takeoff, if at all, everything will be hard pipe/trunks.

 

[mepellet]

I used a "DUCTULATOR"

Handy aren't they?

Im trying to use no flex lines more than 6" in each takeoff, if at all, everything will be hard pipe/trunks.

You have the right idea on this one! You probably found that the flex duct creates a lot of static pressure.

Did you take the calculated static pressure and look at a fan curve to see what cfm you will actually get out of the fan is? Do they provide you with a fan curve or at least a couple points along the curve?

 

[Alain S. Prevost]

I calculated for SP...I can't tell you the exact and I looked at the curves on the dayton blower .... Its been a few weeks and I've been crunching numbers for the duct work sizes, etc. I found a good program on a website too that accounts for all the above, I'll try to find it again.

Today I finished the nursery, guest bedroom/playroom and guest bathroom. Did everything from the trunk to the takeoffs to the floor registers and boots.
I also installed the return air grill...painted it glossy black to match most of the contemporary look within the house.(minus the unfinished basement, hah...that'll be a project down the road)

I am pleased with the progress today. I have to get the rest done by this weekend....and plan on returning all extra ductwork on Monday...hopefully there will be over $200...then I can buy yet another pallet of pellets

Tomorrow I am installing another supply trunk (16x8) that will supply the living room (10" round duct to a 4x14" floor register) and the dining room (8" round to a 4x10register) and the back lower entrance (6" round and a 2x10" kickspace register)
There will be a few starting collars, vertical elbows, flat elbows, some beers and cuss words in the works for tomorrow....

Pics of today's progress and tomorrows will be posted tomorrow sometime.....thanks for following up guys. I cleaned the basement a bit and got things lined up...two tons of pellets stacked so far....trashcan for the empty bags with scissors and a tool box of maintenance items, steel trashcan outside for the ashes, Fire extinguisher and smoke alarm & carbon alarm near the pf100......
My plumber suggested that we install a sprinkler system above the system....Scares me that if it ever goes off, basement will be flooded and tons of pellets would go to waste if it ever went off accidentally. Suggestions???

I definitely love burning the Maine Choice wood pellets (and MWP)! Tossed in 4 bags this evening...we are running the furnace (trying to dial in the temp/thermostat) tonight despite the drying time for the mastic...I'll foil tape the joints/seams in the morning.

Question ---- What is the replacement spec on the firebrick above the burnpot? Should I have an extra one on hand??

 

[Ejectr]

Funny you should mention that. I was wondering the same thing yesterday when I was cleaning mine out for the coming season. I personally don't know. Looks like an ordinary fire brick to me, but knowing Harman....it's a special mix and you can only get it from them for $400.

 

[Alain S. Prevost]

hahaha - Gotta love the replacement parts...

here are the pics from yesterday.
This trunk is in the garage...there is a takeoff directly above that goes into a bedroom (can barely see it) and then the 8" takeoff on the end goes to another bedroom...the 6" takeoff going across the room is for the guest bathroom.
Today hopefully I install another takeoff and trunk off the plenum, run it to 3 rooms.
The other pic is the kickspace under the rear stair entrance...I boxed in the kickspace (hydronic blower) last year...It was perfect to punch a boot into it for this forced air install. I'll be connecting this 6" to the trunk I install today.
Used half a bag last night ----37 degrees outside, 73 degrees inside at living space. Basement and garage at 70, perfect

Im trying to find a good adjustment to the fan control...seems like 100 degrees is too cold.120 the blower never kicks on except once every 4 minutes for 5 seconds...hmm...I'll need to dial that in. Suggestions?

 

[Ejectr]

I have a White Rogers controller. Settings are 120 low and 160 high. Runs several minutes before shutting down for a few minutes. Haven't actually timed it. Your time should obviously be more than 5 seconds. make sure the auto/manual switch is all the way over to auto and the wheel is not stuck.

 

[exoilburner]

Question ---- What is the replacement spec on the firebrick above the burnpot? Should I have an extra one on hand??

Mine developed a hairline crack in the center after about 2 years. It continued to get longer and wider and I replaced it. It was covered under warranty and the dealer did not want me to return the bad one. They have always wanted the bad part returned immediately in the past.

Don't know what they cost; couldn't be too much. Keeping a spare on hand would be a good idea; I always remove mine when I do the one ton full furnace and vent cleaning. I remove my fire brick to vacuume and scrape it's bracket and behind it. It would be easy to drop. It's bracket makes a good trouble light holder when the brick is removed while you are cleaning the fire box & heat exchangers.

But with your oil furnace as a back up you could shut the pellet furnace down for a while and still have heat. You may find that investing in spare parts may not be necessary.

 

[Alain S. Prevost]

Spoke with a Harman Rep here in town ---- He said its not worth having one on hand, hasn't seen a broken one in a long time....Cost is about $4 - $5 dollars each. They usually keep them available in most stores.

harman replacement service parts: Fire Brick 12 x 6 x 1.25" part number 3-40-86125 stocked at harmandepot-yes


here's a pricey one from online.....(broken link removed)


Good to know though! thanks for the input.....back to duct work I go....