Hearth building in a mobile home

[RoseRedHoofbeats]

Hello! I'm the proud soon-to-be owner of a Vermont Castings DutchWest non-cat stove. It calls for an R-value of 1.04 for the floor protection and needs a 48x48 hearth pad. Now, I live in a mobile home, so I have sort of unique hearth building problems...

We're replacing the floor in the kitchen, where the stove is going to go. There was some water damage to the subfloor (which is made of PARTICLE BOARD of all things!) so we're just ripping it up and starting over. I don't actually have decking under my floors- It's just 2x8s (in some cases it's 2x4s nailed together...) for beams. We're going to be replacing the subfloor with 7/8" OSB sheathing and then laminate flooring on top of that.

I was thinking I would put Micore or Fiberfrax on the subfloor, and then tile on top of that. It just seems like the easiest thing to do and the thing that will make it most flush with the floor. I've found sales offices for both of those, so I'm hopeful that I can find a 48x48 piece of it somewhere!

My questions are:

1. What kind of tile is suitable for going on top of the fiberboard? What kind of substrate is best to use? Will the OSB - fiberboard - tile be enough? The fiberboard has an R-value of 1.1, but it's going on top of OSB on top of wooden beams, so would a third layer be advised? Perhaps working some kind of spacing between the fiberboard and tile?
Alternatively, can I install the fibrerboard direcly to the beams, without a subfloor? Is it too brittle for that? Could I use a thinner subfloor- say, 1/4" plywood?

2. Since this is probably going to rise up over the floor a little bit (the underlayment for the laminate is only like 3mm and the laminate itself is 6mm), is there anything I need to protect the edges or pretty them up at all? I'm a carpenter's daughter, I've never done tile before. =P

3. This is going to go in a corner. I assume the 48x48 pad will be enough to ensure it has adequate clearances from the walls? I'm getting every possible kind of heat shield to reduce the clearances- the space from either side of the stove to the wall needs to be 12".
4. I was thinking about getting some woven wool Navajo rugs on either side to protect the laminate from stray sparks (I'm installing the laminate myself, and damned if I'm getting to get any scorch marks!) Good or bad idea?

5. Will the laminate be damaged in any way by the wood stove? I know that low humidity can damage laminate, and it's pretty dry here in Utah during the winter anyway, but that can be overcome with a humidifier. What about the heat itself warping the wood?

Thanks for any help you can give me!

~Rose

 

[Jags]

I don't want to turn this thread in the wrong direction, but...does that stove have the ability to be connected to an OAK (outside air kit). I believe that is a REQUIREMENT in mobile home installation. Just asking the question.

 

[RoseRedHoofbeats]

Oh, yes, it can! It comes with a mobile air kit, and my installation guy said that it wouldn't be a problem to hook it up.

Though that reminds me, he mentioned we could run that through the floor... Another thing to consider! Anyone else had to do that before?

~Rose

 

[Jags]

Oh, yes, it can! It comes with a mobile air kit, and my installation guy said that it wouldn't be a problem to hook it up.

Though that reminds me, he mentioned we could run that through the floor... Another thing to consider! Anyone else had to do that before?

~Rose

That would be a fairly common practice since your basement is "open". That is good to hear.

I am not real familiar with some of the products you have questions about so I will digress and let others chime in on that.

And welcome to the forum.

 

[RoseRedHoofbeats]

Do I HAVE to run it through the floor? I'm already getting a headache trying to figure out the hearth pad, I don't even want to think about how to make a HOLE in the stupid thing...

Thanks for the welcome!

 

[Jags]

Do I HAVE to run it through the floor? I'm already getting a headache trying to figure out the hearth pad, I don't even want to think about how to make a HOLE in the stupid thing...

Thanks for the welcome!

Nope - its just one option. One thing to keep in mind though, is prevailing wind. You won't want the OAK to be constantly battered by the wind. It has the ability to complicate things.

 

[begreen]

Which Dutchwest model stove? For the hearthpad, the tile can not be directly applied on top of the micore. It will need a layer of 1/2" cement board on top of the micore for stability, rigidity and bonding, then the tile.

Corner installations have their own unique clearance requirements for the stove. The hearth will most likely need to be deeper than 48" in order to maintain clearances and have 18" protection in front of the stove doors.

If this is a challenge, I should note that there are stoves with closer clearances than the Dutchwest models and easier hearth requirements. My other concern would be if this is a downdraft model and it is being connected to a short (in height) flue. Some of these stoves are not happy with too short a flue. What will be the total height of pipe on the stove?

 

[Shari]

Again, not to rain on your parade but:

1. Do you have sufficient ceiling height per stove manufacturer recommendations?

2. Does the stove manufacture certify this stove for installation in a mobile home?

3. Have you checked with your homeowners insurance company and local code enforcement authorities to see if they allow a wood stove installation in your home?

Not raining here just asking questions as I did note differences in manufacturer recommendations when researching the purchase of our stove.

Shari

 

[RoseRedHoofbeats]

BeGreen-
It's a 2477 DutchWest- http://www.vermontcastings.com/products.asp?model=dutchwest_noncat

I can definitely layer the Micore and cement board- should it be glued or nailed or screwed down? And I can make the hearth pad bigger- it's going in a pretty unused corner so that's not a problem. The Micore comes in sheets of 4'x8', so can I cut the end off a bit to make say, a 6'x6' square?

The Dutchwest turned out to be the easiest to get for a mobile home, the cheapest, and the easiest to get installed. My installation guy was recommended to me by Vermont Castings and he seemed to think we were good to go as far as flue and pipe were concerned, so I just need to haul him over and go over some more detailed requirements. I just want a better idea of what I'm doing beforehand. I don't know the exact measurements, but I can find out easy enough. What would be okay and what would be a problem?

Shari-
1. Do you have sufficient ceiling height per stove manufacturer recommendations? Yes, the ceiling has enough clearance.

2. Does the stove manufacture certify this stove for installation in a mobile home? Yes, it comes with a mobile home kit and is UL listed for mobile home use.

3. Have you checked with your homeowners insurance company and local code enforcement authorities to see if they allow a wood stove installation in your home? Yup, already done. =)

Thanks for everyone's help! I managed to find Micore for $30 a sheet (YAY!) so that's good news. If anyone is looking for some in Salt Lake, Swanson's Building Supplies stocks it.

~Rose

 

[Shari]

Rose,

Sounds like you are good to go! You will enjoy wood heat!

Shari

 

[begreen]

I'd slow down and read up a bit on the stove. Also PM tradergordo for some details on burning in it. There are other low priced stove options that are available that will be easier to burn in, less complex, closer corner clearances, easier hearth requirements and perhaps with a lot less maintenance in a few years. What is the price on the Dutchwest? Is the installer the dealer or an independent?

https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/41128/
https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/10201/

 

[Fake coal burner]

Here is the link to that stove manual set up.
http://literature.mhsc.com/vermont_castings/manuals/30002314_Dutchwest_NC_Sm_18.pdf hh:

 

[RoseRedHoofbeats]

The price I got from the dealer, Titan Heating and Air, was $1,350. They carry other brands of stoves, so when I go back in I'll ask about what stoves are good to use in a mobile home that they carry for less than that. I haven't put a deposit down yet -didn't want to order a stove I couldn't put in my house yet!- so I can still change my mind if I have to. So far I've been pretty pleased with the dealer- they match the manufacturer's warranty so if anything goes wrong besides me futzing it up completely, I should be okay.

The installer is an independent and came recommended by the dealer. His price for a full install, including delivery and assembly, was $1,200. The other stove company close to me, Transocean Limited, only had Hearthstone products for use in a mobile home and those were much more expensive. I did look into Jotuls but the ones certified for mobile home use were by far out of my price range- in the two and three thousands. The only way I could convince my husband to get a wood stove was to keep the stove and install under $3k, which so far I've done by the skin of my teeth! I've been researching stoves for close to a year now, since I knew our furnace needed replacing. Looks like I should have showed up here sooner!

My aunt has had a VC stove for going on ten years now and she's the one who recommended the company to me, but, for all I know she could have bought it before these problems started showing up. I've never heard of any problems with them until I came here- read through some of the threads. I'm a little worried because nothing else I've read online, or from talking to the dealer and installer seemed to indicate a problem, and neither of them really profit from me buying from VC- certainly the dealer had more expensive stoves and the installer gets paid no matter what I buy. Can anyone elaborate on what exactly the problem with the Dutchwest/VC is? From talking to people here in my area with wood stoves, I'll go through 1.5-2.5 cords a year with my tiny house (only 850 sq. ft) so basically any stove I get just needs to be small, have an outside air kit, and certified for use in mobile homes. I'd prefer cast iron simply for the economics of it- I looked into the Buckstove steel stoves, but again, the ones for mobile home use were out of my price range plus I couldn't find a dealer closer than Colorado so I would have had to pay for more shipping.

I have the stove manual for things like clearances and what R values and such, but was having trouble working out the exact mechanics of the hearth pad. At any rate, I'm going to have to install a hearth pad no matter what. So again-

1. What kind of tile should I be looking for to go over the Micore? What should I use to secure the Micore-Durarock to the subfloor?

2. What effect on my shiny new laminate will a wood stove have?

3. What is an effective way to protect the floor around the hearth pad from stray embers (beyond building anything bigger than 6'x6' pad)?

Thanks for all your help!!

~Rose

 

[begreen]

A good dealer that you trust is important. But there are some reputable online dealers that can help here too. For your situation I would also look at the Napoleon 1100 or 1400 series. Very easy hearth requirements and closer clearances so the hearth can be smaller and no micore needed. The Osburn 1100 also is in this price range. Both are sold by Obidiah's in Montana. http://www.woodstoves.net/woodstoves.htm I would also consider the Englander TVL17. This is mobilehome approved and has a great intro price. http://www.overstockstoves.com/50tvl17--epa-certified-noncatalytic-wood-stove--1250171200.html It doesn't have a track record yet, but the designer is a hearth.com member and Englander is a good company to work with. Mike H, is a member here and also Englander tech support.

All of these stoves are simpler designs than the DW stove, with closer installation clearances and only require ember protection for the hearth.

For you other questions:

1) Usually a porcelain tile is a good bet, but some folks use natural stone tiles like slate instead.
2) Not sure, but if the hearth protects 18" in front of the stove I would expect no effect at all.
3) You could use a hearth rug in front of the pad for greater peace of mind. If you have pets, that is where they'll be sleeping.

 

[RoseRedHoofbeats]

Okay, thanks! I will ask the dealer on Monday when I go in to talk to him about getting one of those stoves and if they're certified for a mobile home.

Is there a terribly compelling reason not to use the Micore? I have a building supplies place that sells it in a 4x8' sheet for $30, and that way I KNOW the R value is strong enough and it's only three layers.

In the meantime, I have a floor to rip out. I absolutely hate what's in there now- old seventies brown shag carpeting that's gone clumpy and hard. I am really looking forward to taking a wrecking bar to it.

ETA: Holy crap. I posted without looking at the link for the Englander. $550?? SOLD.

~Rose

 

[begreen]

If micore is sold close by and easy for you to get, that's great. It won't hurt to have that protection even if the stove does not require it. Just be sure to top it off with 1/2 cement board before installing the tile. I hear you on the shag crapet. Sounds like a satisfying weekend project.

 

[RoseRedHoofbeats]

Heh, I just showed the Englander to my husband and told him I found a mobile home approved stove for $550. First thing he asked was, "Have you ordered it yet??"

So we're pretty sure about this brand, yes? Forgive my skepticism, it's just sort of one of those "too good to be true" things. Shouldn't be any harder to install, right?

I also thought about it some more, and I think we're going to demolish the wet bar that's in my kitchen now- that's what seperates it from the living room, and was going to make up one of the corners where the stove was going to go. But we don't really *need* it (especially since I'm turning the cabinet where the furnace is now into a pantry- bonus storage space!) and it will help with heating the rest of the house if that isn't there. Which makes the whole hearth pad thing MUCH easier, especially with just eight inches from the stove to the wall with the liners!

Thank you SO much, this really eases up the budget BIG time. I'm so glad I posted!

~Rose

 

[begreen]

Download the installation manual for the Englander 17-VL, it will have the clearances and hearth dimensions, etc..
http://www.englanderstoves.com/manuals/17-VL.pdf

Englander is made in Virginia. They have been around for awhile and have a good reputation. As noted earlier, this is a new design. This is the first year it's been on the market. It was designed for efficient heating in a small stove and is somewhat similar to some Morso designs, but in steel. If you have more questions about installation, don't hesitate to give their tech support a call.

Here's a link to this stove when it was under development:
https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/23984/

 

[RoseRedHoofbeats]

AUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUGH. *flail* I have TWO WEEKS to finish this whole shebang, before I fly down to Texas to be with my dad (he was just diagnosed with stage four kidney cancer and it's in his lungs, it's REALLLLLY not gonna be good) until December 1st. If my husband screws up the wood stove while I'm gone, I swear to all the saints and angels, I will file for divorce. I'm debating just making him use the space heater and forbidding him to so much as touch it until I get back.

So, with the Micore - Durarock, I'm probably just going to have the guys at the local Home Depot (who know me by name and by sight after I built that *%#$ing woodshed) to cut it to shape for me. With the Englander stove, I should be good with a 48"x48" hearthpad (right? RIGHT.), so I'm just going to cut the Micore in half, then Durarock, then tile. One of my friends' husbands used to do tile (YAYAYAYAY) so he's going to walk me through that whole process.

1. What should I use to secure the Micore and the Durarock to the subfloor? I have some vague, dim memory of needing a special kind of screw to go through cementboard? (Like I said, carpenter's daughter! I do wood!)

2. What substrate should I use on top of the Durarock for the tile?

3. For the tile, it's probbbably going to be some kind of stone- granite or slate. What thickness should I be looking for?

Here's a picture of the kitchen/living room where this is going, roughly to scale. I sort of screwed up the length of the room, the counters don't stick out that far (more like three feet than four feet) but by the time I realized that I didn't want to start over. =P

~Rose

 

[RoseRedHoofbeats]

So I did all the math for the materials today...

12 4x8 sheets of OSB
32 screws per sheet

384 SCREWS. Have I mentioned I hate putting in screws?

My husband decides to mention to me TODAY that he's done tile before and it's really easy. I don't know a piece of tile from a hole in the ground, so that's good news. Now I just have to pick it out.

Gona start demo work on Tuesday. Hooray!

~Rose

 

[Jags]

For the Durock - use Durock screws.

Nothing needs to be layered over the durock for tiles. Durock is a tile backer.

 

[Fi-Q]

Drolet Stove are, I think, available in the us, they ahve a good range of smaller appliance ok for mobile home and I think they should be well under 1325$.

http://www.drolet.ca/index-en.aspx

Good luck.

 

[begreen]

Rose, sorry to hear about your Dad. If you need to buy some time, the stove would be all right on a couple sheets of durock temporarily. But if you just want to have this done then the pad needs to be at least 39" wide and 37" deep, though there is no harm in making it larger. The front protection is the most important. 48" x 48" should more than cover your needs. Is the class A flue already in? That will help with the flue location on the stove which will determine what you need to have at least 16" of hearth in front of the stove.

What the heck is all that OSB for? Are you redoing the entire floor? By all means be sure you have a really nice cordless drill for that task and some extra phillips bits.

 

[RoseRedHoofbeats]

Yup, redoing the WHOLE floor, 12'x24'. It's made of particle board and it's 30 years old (my trailer was built in 1980, I suspect by a couple of underpaid alcoholics on a Monday morning) and after a few pipe bursts, we have several soft spots, so we're just killing it and starting over. I have two electric drills and phillips bits, roughly 8 pounds of screws (funny story... I was staring at the five pound box of screws and the ten pound box and then held the five pound box up and yelled in a crowded aisle "POP QUIZ! How many screws you think are in here??" It's fun being a girl in a hardware store. Guys fall all over themselves coming to help. It's entertaining to watch.), Liquid Nails, a wrecking bar, several hammers, a pry bar... I had a fun shopping trip yesterday.

If we put the stove on top of the Durarock, and got that installed, assuming the stove was cold (obviously) could we put the tile AROUND the stove? It has that nice high SQUARE (well, rectangle) pedestal base... And that way we could just go AROUND the hole for the OAK intake in the floor with the tile? That might actually be easier.

Thanks for all the help and the condolences. To save I've been giving myself an ulcer the past few weeks does not begin to describe it.

~Rose

 

[begreen]

Wow, I admire your spunk. It will be easier to tile the hearth without the stove there. Tiling is a bit messy and involves some wet steps. It would mess up the stove. But you can have the OAK pipe (or just a clearance sleeve) stubbed in through the durock and tile around that.