Hearth Extender

[Mrs. Krabappel]

I need a simple, inexpensive solution to extend my hearth. I am only concerned about function at this point. The hearth is stone and flush with the floor. The floor is hard wood. I don't have a problem attaching something to the floor. When I re-finish the floor I will integrate something more permanent and aesthetically pleasing.

I have searched net stores and searched posts on hearth.com. It's still unclear to me how to go about finding something that meets the specs. The specs aren't even listed for most commercially available "hearth extenders."

For example:
http://www.walmart.com/ip/Minuteman...ender-in-Silver-Shine/15199683#Specifications

Here's what the manual says

Installation on a Combustible Floor
If the appliance is to be installed on a combustible floor or a combustible floor covering, it must
be installed on a 1†thick non-combustible millboard floor protector or a durable equivalent, with a
“R†factor of at least “1.5†(English units) or equivalent. The pad must be installed beneath the
unit, extending 16†(U.S.) on the side equipped with a door, and 8†on all other sides. The pad
must cover any horizontal chimney connector runs and extend 2†beyond each side.
Alternate Floor Protection:
An easy means of determining if a proposed alternate floor protector meets requirements is to
follow this procedure:
1) Convert specification to R-value:
i R-value is given – no conversion is needed
ii k-factor is given with a required thickness (T) in inches: R = 1/k x T
iii C-factor is given: R = 1/C
2) Determine the R-value of the proposed alternate floor protector:
i Use the correct formula given in step 1 (above) to convert values not expressed as “R.â€
ii For multiple layers, add R-values of each layer to determine overall R-value.
3) If the overall R-value of the system is greater than the R-value of the specified floor protector,
the alternate is acceptable.

 

[begreen]

Kath, catch us up on the big picture. This is for the 30NC, correct? If yes, the stove needs R = 1.5 which is a bit over the standard hearth pad rating of R - 1.0. That means that off the shelf may not work here. But if you are looking for a cheap interim solution I am thinking 4x8x16 half cement blocks as a temporary base. There should be a layer of cement board on top to prevent embers from reaching the floor.

 

[Mrs. Krabappel]

Yes for the 30, but the stone hearth is flush with the wood floor.

 

[fossil]

How far out past the end of the existing hearth will you have to come to get the 16" from the window on the 30? Rick

 

[Mrs. Krabappel]

8" to extend. A couple of inches less if I order the shorter legs, as the upper part angles forward.

 

[fossil]

So, shorter legs lets you set the stove a couple inches deeper into the fireplace? Am I reading that correctly? But the whole stove is sitting atop the existing stone hearth. No part of the stove itself is going to be directly above wood flooring. So we're just worried about 6" or 8" of hardwood floor that's within the 16" front clearance. Is that right? Just making sure I've got an accurate pic in my head. Rick

 

[Mrs. Krabappel]

Yes correct all. Although I might have to re-think the angle of the stovepipe if the collar was sitting back a couple of inches. (stove is not installed yet) Either way, the stove will be entirely on the stone with at least 8" clearance.

 

[fossil]

Hmm. Almost seems like maybe a call to Englander Tech Support might be worth a try. It doesn't make sense that the R-value spec needs to apply all the way out 16". Dunno if anything would come of that sort of inquiry or not. If you have to build to R 1.5 for 6" or 8" out from the front edge of the existing hearth, and 8" beyond each side of the stove, well...that'll be an interesting challenge. Rick

 

[Mrs. Krabappel]

The stone extends far enough on either side, so it's just the front that's an issue.

 

[HollowHill]

I am having the same issue with my upcoming install. I have a bluestone hearth that is flush with the floor and will need to be extended in front. In discussing the situation with a contractor, his recommendation was to put a new piece of bluestone over the top of the existing bluestone (with a layer of durock or whatever that stuff is sandwiched in between to give sufficient R-value to the floor part) and extending to the right distance. Surprisingly, this option will be cheaper than the prefab hearth protection or adding a piece of bluestone if front of the existing bluestone- around $200 he thought. I will be interested to hear what you end up doing.

 

[leeave96]

I bought a hearth pad for my Englander 30 from Tractor Supply and it has a 1.5 R value. It looks like a piece of cement board with a piece of decorative tin wrapped around the top and sides. In my install, I am setting the stove on concrete and don't need a pad - I bought it to keep the stove from scuffing the concrete floor.

Maybe you could get one of these pads from Tractor Supply and trim it to suit your needs.

Good luck,
Bill

 

[SnapCracklePop]

From experience, the Englander specs are overkill. The tile right in front of my stove got warm to the touch, but not enough to make me pull my hand away.

I would suggest a hearth rug made of -- what? -- asbestos, laid on the floor at the edge of the stone hearth. That would protect the wood floor from any stray embers that might pop out.

Or would your insurance agent throw a hissy fit?

Nancy

 

[SnapCracklePop]

PS to my previous post: For more peace of mind, maybe a layer of durock under the hearth carpet?

Nancy

 

[begreen]

I bought a hearth pad for my Englander 30 from Tractor Supply and it has a 1.5 R value. It looks like a piece of cement board with a piece of decorative tin wrapped around the top and sides. In my install, I am setting the stove on concrete and don't need a pad - I bought it to keep the stove from scuffing the concrete floor.

Maybe you could get one of these pads from Tractor Supply and trim it to suit your needs.

Good luck,
Bill

OK, back online and with the whole picture I see my suggestion was for the entire stove support, it would be overkill for just the hearth extension. I like this idea. If that is a 3/4" sheet of micore (it will be much softer and lighter than cement board) then that would be fine. However, what I am finding so far is backed with 3/8" micore or R=.77. Your call.

http://www.amazon.com/Company-UL3242GT-1-Stove-Board-32x42/dp/B002UZXOZ6

If the Tractor supply board uses 1/2" micore, that would be better (R=1.03)

http://www.tractorsupply.com/round-stove-board-ul-ulc-black-pebble-finish-36-in-h-3197018

 

[begreen]

I looked up the maker of the Tractor Supply board (Imperial), and it is not recommended. This is from their installation manual:

APPLICATIONS
R-Value = 0. For use with appliances that require only ember protection. This product is not to be used with appliances that specify Type 2 thermal floor protection or a specific R-value requirement.

(broken link removed to http://www.imperialgroup.ca/userfiles/file/PR0715_StoveBoardInstructions.pdf)

The other board listed at Amazon is made by H-YC, which specifies it uses 3/8" Micore covered with sheet metal. It is also sold at Sears, Mills Farm, Ace Hardware, and Northline Express. I just found the installation instructions for the H-YC product and they are listing its R value = .45.

For the short extension that you need I would get the smallest sized (28" x 32") H-YC board. If you are going with the short leg kit, I would consider either getting two and layering them or at least add a layer of cement board underneath it. My concern being that temporary measures often become permanent. So the best solution is to do it right with a proper extension of the R value recommended by Englander.

 

[DanCorcoran]

Imperial makes many different products. I bought an Imperial Stove Pad at Lowes (also found it at Ace Hardware), which was made of Micore, per my thread last year:

Ever since I bought my stove pad, I’ve been trying to find something in writing that would specify the R-value. Their insert says it has insulating value equal to 3/8†asbestos millboard, which I haven’t had any luck finding an R-value for either. Their customer service department said it has R= 1.08, but nothing in writing to that effect.

Here’s where the “slap forehead†comes in: As I was moving the pad today, prior to installation, I happened to look again at the back side. Printed in inch-high letters it says, “USG Micoreâ€. As many people have indicated, Micore is an excellent insulator and a 1/2†thick piece has R= 1.1 (which is essentially what Imperial’s customer service said).

I mentioned in another thread that I bought my 36†x 48†piece (covered in black sheet metal) for $43 at Lowe’s. It was an end-of-season closeout, normally priced at $56.95. All’s well that ends well…
Signature

Regards,

Dan Corcoran

 

[begreen]

Dan what you are saying makes perfect sense. That's why I looked up Imperial, it appears to be a thicker board than H-YC. Still, I have no idea why Imperial contradicts the rating with their published installation instructions that cover most of the boards I could find for sale including for models: BM0127, BM0129RC, BM0130RC, BM0204RC, BM0128RC, BM0131RC, BM0211RC, BM0308RC, BM0206RC, BM0251RC, BM0176RC, BM0177RC, BM0178RC, BM0309RC, BM0310RC, BM0311RC.

Perhaps the best approach is to flip whatever hearthboard you find over and see if it lists micore on the backside?

 

[MarkinNC]

Etowah Fireplace and Patio had a nice selection of hearth extenders the last time I was in there. The simple black ones are pretty inexpensive.

 

[DanCorcoran]

Dan what you are saying makes perfect sense. That's why I looked up Imperial, it appears to be a thicker board than H-YC. Still, I have no idea why Imperial contradicts the rating with their published installation instructions that cover most of the boards I could find for sale including for models: BM0127, BM0129RC, BM0130RC, BM0204RC, BM0128RC, BM0131RC, BM0211RC, BM0308RC, BM0206RC, BM0251RC, BM0176RC, BM0177RC, BM0178RC, BM0309RC, BM0310RC, BM0311RC.

Perhaps the best approach is to flip whatever hearthboard you find over and see if it lists micore on the backside?

It's really kind of odd. The instruction sheet that came with mine is exactly the same as the link you provided above, except that mine doesn't list all those model numbers and doesn't have the statement about having an R value = 0. Mine did have a sticker on the board itself that says "ULC Listed", which I assume is Underwriters' Labs of Canada, and the numbers 77Y9. It also says, "Heat Shield", and, "May also be used as a floor protector beneath appliances certified for installation on combustible floors. Other appliances may require additional protection."

My guesses are, 1) they're still making the board of Micore, but don't want to make any claims as to R value; 2) they're no longer using Micore or other insulating board; 3) I have a model that isn't on the list you linked to.

 

[leeave96]

I looked up the maker of the Tractor Supply board (Imperial), and it is not recommended. This is from their installation manual:

APPLICATIONS
R-Value = 0. For use with appliances that require only ember protection. This product is not to be used with appliances that specify Type 2 thermal floor protection or a specific R-value requirement.

(broken link removed to http://www.imperialgroup.ca/userfiles/file/PR0715_StoveBoardInstructions.pdf)

The other board listed at Amazon is made by H-YC, which specifies it uses 3/8" Micore covered with sheet metal. It is also sold at Sears, Mills Farm, Ace Hardware, and Northline Express. I just found the installation instructions for the H-YC product and they are listing its R value = .45.

For the short extension that you need I would get the smallest sized (28" x 32") H-YC board. If you are going with the short leg kit, I would consider either getting two and layering them or at least add a layer of cement board underneath it. My concern being that temporary measures often become permanent. So the best solution is to do it right with a proper extension of the R value recommended by Englander.

The stove board I got at Tractor Supply is different. It is Imperial model BM0406. I can't find this model number anywhere on Imperial's or TSC's websites. The TSC number is 1021780.

The board is Type 2 - not type 1. It has an R value of 1.5, is for floor protection, but states on the package that it can be used as a Type 1 ember protection board. The date of mfg is 08/11 so maybe this is a new item.

Bill

 

[Mrs. Krabappel]

It's not much clearer :lol: Thanks for the input. Bill I can't find that on the TS website either. I'll have to check the store. Mark I'll stop by Etowah, but I seem to remember them showing me just the carpet. That's about five minutes from my house. I get frustrated there though. They never seem to know what I'm talking about and give me the 'lil lady routine. Plus the one guy asked me if I had to teach "those Mexeecans." They have a lot of great stove inventory though!

 

[begreen]

Yeah, this is a clear as mud. Dan, I am wondering if your board is a discontinued item. I also checked on Copperfield 73910, which is listed as 5/8" thick and can't get a straight spec. The Minuteman that was initially asked about is metal clad, backed by particleboard. That would be ok for ember protection only. This hearth extension is tile on cement board. http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_12605_SPM187867668P?prdNo=20&blockNo=20&blockType=G20 . Or you might call woodland about this product to get their R value. The better Hearthsafe pads claim an R=2.4 rating, but I don't know if this applies to their hearth extension:
http://www.woodlanddirect.com/Wood-...arth-Safe-Hearth-Extender-Steel-Edge-Stardust

At this rate, by the time we get a decent answer Kath, you could have cut up the floor and put in a proper extension.

 

[Mrs. Krabappel]

The stove board I got at Tractor Supply is different. It is Imperial model BM0406. I can't find this model number anywhere on Imperial's or TSC's websites. The TSC number is 1021780.

The board is Type 2 - not type 1. It has an R value of 1.5, is for floor protection, but states on the package that it can be used as a Type 1 ember protection board. The date of mfg is 08/11 so maybe this is a new item.

Bill

I just wanted to update that I did find this at tractor supply yesterday. It was not in last time I checked about a week ago. It's not on their website. R value 1.5. I chose the slate It's super ugly but will function as needed.

Sounds like most of my boyfriends :lol:

 

[remkel]

Good luck with the hearth extension. i wish I could be of more assistance, but my install is in the basement on concrete.