Hearthstone Manchester or Alderlea T5???

[Mike n PA]

Hi all, new to forum from Pennsylvania...... Just bought and moved into 1760 farmhouse and as you can imagine there are some heating issues keeping a house of this age comfy.... The side of the home I need heat in has a large walk in fireplace (pic attached) where I intend to put a stove to heat that stone wall to hopefully radiate the heat I am hoping for.

I have a local dealer around the corner with an Alderlea T5 that is a real nice looking stove. My research seems to point that it is a good efficient performer. Also I was curious about the heat retention in soap stone stoves (hearthstone Manchester is what I am looking at). I have seen some negative reviews about warping, etc.

Hoping someone may have similar old home and stove recommendations?? Or have stoves I am looking at and can give an honest opinion on it......

Thanks for reading!! Look forward to comments.

 

[begreen]

Of the two the Manchester would be a much more radiant stove. For sure you would need a blockoff plate and a mantel shield.

 

[Grisu]

Welcome to the forum!

The two stoves you mentioned are quite a bit different in size. The T5 has a 2 cu ft firebox, the Manchester a 3 cu ft one. The bigger the firebox, the more wood you can put into the stove and the larger the area you may be able to heat. How many sqft are you trying to heat? How open is the room to the rest of the house? The fireplace is certainly large enough to give you many options for a stove. What is your budget?

You will also need a full liner with a block-off plate and plenty of dry wood with an internal moisture content of less than 20%.

 

[begreen]

I'd also look at the Jotul F600 and the Quadrafire Isle Royale.

 

[Toploader]

The T5 will not rear vent so unless you are planning on putting the stove inside the fireplace consider other rear venting options like the Isle Royale, the Jotul F500 or F600.

 

[Mike n PA]

The T5 will not rear vent so unless you are planning on putting the stove inside the fireplace consider other rear venting options like the Isle Royale, the Jotul F500 or F600.

Thanks for the reply. I do plan on putting it inside the fireplace to top vent as there is plenty of room to do so inside it.

 

[brad wilton]

how many sqft are you looking to heat,how much heating do you plan on 24/7?. are your rooms walled off or open, from what i hear both are good heaters .I have an old stone house that doesn't hold the heat very well,you might want something that heats up fast

 

[Mike n PA]

Welcome to the forum!

The two stoves you mentioned are quite a bit different in size. The T5 has a 2 cu ft firebox, the Manchester a 3 cu ft one. The bigger the firebox, the more wood you can put into the stove and the larger the area you may be able to heat. How many sqft are you trying to heat? How open is the room to the rest of the house? The fireplace is certainly large enough to give you many options for a stove. What is your budget?

You will also need a full liner with a block-off plate and plenty of dry wood with an internal moisture content of less than 20%.

The room is central to the area I need to heat. Above that room in pic is my sons bedroom and the full bath upstairs. In opposite corner of that room is an old spiral style pie staircase leading to the two. On the other side of wall is kitchen (coldest part of house) with cathedral ceiling (and ceiling fan). All in is probably 1500 sq ft that I really need the heat.

The builder who somewhat restored the house put the thermostats both on the other far side of house which isn't helping the issue.....

Budget wise I am trying to stay less than 5k installed (including liner, labor, etc.....). I would do it but need a chimney cert for twp.......

 

[Mike n PA]

Welcome to the forum!

The two stoves you mentioned are quite a bit different in size. The T5 has a 2 cu ft firebox, the Manchester a 3 cu ft one. The bigger the firebox, the more wood you can put into the stove and the larger the area you may be able to heat. How many sqft are you trying to heat? How open is the room to the rest of the house? The fireplace is certainly large enough to give you many options for a stove. What is your budget?

You will also need a full liner with a block-off plate and plenty of dry wood with an internal moisture content
of less than 20%.

Also, the block off plate I am not familiar with. I took a pic going up chimney ( u could probably put a ladder inside this thing really with how big it is). Also ref my pic in first post, the original fireplace was the whole width of the wall so just inside the mantel is a good 8 ft across by 3 feet deep. Not sure if that makes sense?

 

[Grisu]

For 1500 sqft in an old farmhouse that is probably not that well insulated I would go a bit larger than the T5. The T6 would look similar and give you a 3 cu ft firebox. Similar looking stoves would be:
Enviro Boston 1700
Jotul F55
Already mentioned: Quadrafire Isle Royale and Jotul F600
BlazeKing Ashford 30: The latter is catalytic meaning you can control the heat output better and you will get considerably longer burn times. While taking care of a cat may sound daunting, quite a few members here upgraded to a cat stove due to those benefits. Check out some of the threads about this stove.

Check also which of those stoves load well from the front. I think most users prefer the side-loading option in the Jotul F600 which will be challenging in your proposed spot. May be similar for the Manchester.

Here is an explanation how to make a block-off plate: https://www.hearth.com/talk/wiki/make-a-damper-sealing-block-off-plate/ Since the chimney seems to be really big, you will need it or most of the heat will just go up the flue.

 

[brad wilton]

stuff a lot of roxul in the chimney and then add block of plate.the people who install your liner will/should know what to do.biggest most long burning stove within your budget.your gonna need it

 

[Mike n PA]

For 1500 sqft in an old farmhouse that is probably not that well insulated I would go a bit larger than the T5. The T6 would look similar and give you a 3 cu ft firebox. Similar looking stoves would be:
Enviro Boston 1700
Jotul F55
Already mentioned: Quadrafire Isle Royale and Jotul F600
BlazeKing Ashford 30: The latter is catalytic meaning you can control the heat output better and you will get considerably longer burn times. While taking care of a cat may sound daunting, quite a few members here upgraded to a cat stove due to those benefits. Check out some of the threads about this stove.

Check also which of those stoves load well from the front. I think most users prefer the side-loading option in the Jotul F600 which will be challenging in your proposed spot. May be similar for the Manchester.

Here is an explanation how to make a block-off plate: https://www.hearth.com/talk/wiki/make-a-damper-sealing-block-off-plate/ Since the chimney seems to be really big, you will need it or most of the heat will just go up the flue.

Thanks very much for the helpful info. Lots to mill over now!! I guess I assumed with having a chimney cap sealed to top of chimney the stove heating the chimney stone all the way up May radiate the walls better. All good info, thanks again for the help!

 

[Ashful]

How was I not paged on this one? ;-)

Marking, so I can respond more appropriately tomorrow.

 

[begreen]

Bout time, I thought you'd enjoy that fireplace.

 

[Mike n PA]

How was I not paged on this one? ;-)

Marking, so I can respond more appropriately tomorrow.

Wow, very nice to see that you have a fireplace quite similar to mine! Look forward to hearing from you and looks like you are local too Joful. I am in Warminster area of bucks county.

 

[Ashful]

Thanks, Mike! Just like your place would've surely had, we have two cooking fireplaces. So many of the summer kitchens are long-lost, tho.

The fireplace in my avatar is the one in what used to be summer kitchen of this house, now a new family room. It appears (from historic photos and my own measurements) that the fireplace floor was raised to match the rest of the house when the new family room was built, and so the lintel is a little low. The one in the original kitchen of the house (now a den) documented in another thread titled "old fireplace," and still has an original lintel height of 60" for true "walk-in" cooking functionality.

Your fireplace appears to have been modified. The fascia board on your lintel appears far too low, and that blockwork on either side is obviously new. It also appears your hearth extension is probably a later addition. The same hearth extension (albeit larger) has been added to both of my fireplaces, as having none is a red flag for insurance, these days.

Your biggest issue with fitting a stove in that fireplace is going to be CTC (clearance to combustibles), mostly with respect to the wooden lintel, unless it has been replaced by iron. You will also find wooden nailers / cribbing in the stonework behind the casing that surrounds the fireplace opening, which is usually covered by the plaster. Technically not legal, but most of us do ignore it.

As to stove size, what is the construction of your house, and status of all doors and windows? Your head will spin if I tell you how much wood and oil I chew thru, heating a house of similar vintage, with original doors and windows!

 

[Mike n PA]

Thanks, Mike! Just like your place would've surely had, we have two cooking fireplaces. So many of the summer kitchens are long-lost, tho.

The fireplace in my avatar is the one in what used to be summer kitchen of this house, now a new family room. It appears (from historic photos and my own measurements) that the fireplace floor was raised to match the rest of the house when the new family room was built, and so the lintel is a little low. The one in the original kitchen of the house (now a den) documented in another thread titled "old fireplace," and still has an original lintel height of 60" for true "walk-in" cooking functionality.

Your fireplace appears to have been modified. The fascia board on your lintel appears far too low, and that blockwork on either side is obviously new. It also appears your hearth extension is probably a later addition. The same hearth extension (albeit larger) has been added to both of my fireplaces, as having none is a red flag for insurance, these days.

Your biggest issue with fitting a stove in that fireplace is going to be CTC (clearance to combustibles), mostly with respect to the wooden lintel, unless it has been replaced by iron. You will also find wooden nailers / cribbing in the stonework behind the casing that surrounds the fireplace opening, which is usually covered by the plaster. Technically not legal, but most of us do ignore it.

As to stove size, what is the construction of your house, and status of all doors and windows? Your head will spin if I tell you how much wood and oil I chew thru, heating a house of similar vintage, with original doors and windows!

Thankfully the builder replaced the probably close to 30 windows in this home with brand new efficient windows! The doors however are original and my biggest infiltration of cold air. The room with the summer kitchen is the original 1760 structure and you are right it has been modified at some point. The original fireplace was the width of the wall. I will attach a pic looking in the fireplace to the right. It is quite tall but the lintel is a wood beam.... I think it should be far enough away though depending on stove? This side of the home is over a small crawl space. The other side that stays warm is over the basement.

I actually see a hearthstone Bennington close to us in PA that is prob 3 years old I am considering. Do you have any ideas on that stove?

The home in total is 2760 sq ft but again,,,, this room and the room behind this wall where fireplace resides is where I need the impact of the stove (and rooms above the room where fireplace is too)...... The floors are all original pumpkin pin wide plank flooring, so plenty of air gaps, etc hopefully will help heat radiate......

Any thoughts welcome

 

[Ashful]

Don't be so quick to discount the value of original windows! Besides looking infinitely better than any replacement window in an old house, re-working your old windows is actually the financially and environmentally responsible choice. Yes, in poor condition, they can be quite drafty and inefficient. However, in good repair, they can be as efficient as the best windows on the market today (and almost always more efficient than replacement windows). My rebuilt 1770's windows with storms installed radiate a heck of a lot less energy than the top of the line low-E Anderson's installed in our 1994 addition, and will last easily another 200 years, whereas I will be replacing all of those Anderson's within the next 10 - 20 years.

Definitely look into a weatherstripping those doors, preferably with interlocking metal weatherstripping. Check out Killian's (local) or Accurate Metal Weatherstripping (web). Draft sucks more heat than radiation, in old houses.

On the wooden lintel, some argue (with very good reason) that this is technically an "alcove" installation, and as such alcove stoves and clearances must be met. On the flip side, there are countless (in SE PA alone) stoves residing in old cooking fireplaces, violating the clearance requirements to these wooden lintels. I know one of my stoves is closer to the wood lintel than I would have allowed if I were doing the install myself, but it was cleared by the building inspector (new addition) and 20 year's worth of insurance agent inspections, and has never been a problem. Not the greatest of reasoning, but it's where we are.

As to heating the room on the other side of the fireplace wall, it might have some merit. My stonework runs about 85F on the fireplace, with the stove going 24/7. Even on the outside of my house, the heat signature is quite clear. The photos below show the outside walls behind each of my fireplaces containing stoves. The one reading 38F is an 18"+ exterior wall, and the one reading 50F is just a summer kitchen fireplace wall, likely thinner than 18".



Do note the old windows with storms in the first photo are black (~14F), whereas the newer low-E dual-pane windows on the new addition in the second photo are reading close to 30F. The few warm windows you see in the old part of the house had missing or damaged storm windows, at the time I took those photos.

So, you will push some heat thru that wall, if you keep the stove going 24/7. Not sure how much, but it's something.

Watching the folks on this site in my first few years, heating small and tight houses 100% with their wood stove, I got excited about doing the very same thing. However, I was ripping thru wood at a pace of a cord a week, and we were still cold, trying to heat a very large old house. More recently, I just keep one stove fed 24/7, and only keep the second stove going when I'm home for weekends (and holidays). This keeps my wood usage manageable, adds a lot of BTU's to the house (keeping my oil bill down), and removes a lot of the stress of keeping the house warm. Yes, the boiler runs as dictated by my programmable thermostats, but a heck of a lot less than it would if I weren't pumping BTU's into the house with the aid of a wood stove.

As to your floors, I'm sure they're beautiful! I grew up with some very wide pine floors, but this house has floor planking all less than 10" wide. Apparently, it was a sign of wealth to spend the extra coin for narrower floor boards, back in the 18th century. So opposite our thinking today. In any case, have you considered insulating from below? We have the oldest part of our basement finished, and have 1" foam board with drywall fitted to each joist bay. It's not good enough to keep the floors completely warm when we let the basement cold, but it does eliminate all draftiness.

 

[rijim]

Checkout the Woodstock Progress also; high output and efficient wood usage. Having the CAT will allow you to burn clean when running lower in the shoulder seasons.

 

[Ashful]

Isn't the PH a rear vented side loader? The worst possible configuration for a fireplace install.

 

[Flamestead]

Isn't the PH a rear vented side loader? The worst possible configuration for a fireplace install.

The PH has both top and rear venting, but only side loading.

 

[Tenn Dave]

Isn't the PH a rear vented side loader? The worst possible configuration for a fireplace install.

Rear or top vented. Side loading. Beautiful piece of heating equipment. Top performer and one of the best Customer Service Departments in the industry today.

 

[Ashful]

Great company, but I'll have to disagree on beautiful. In any case, side loading in a fireplace is less than ideal.

 

[Tenn Dave]

Great company, but I'll have to disagree on beautiful. In any case, side loading in a fireplace is less than ideal.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I think it is one of the nicest looking stoves out there. I guess the side loading issue depends on how far the stove goes in the fireplace and how wide the fireplace is.

 

[Grisu]

Since the stove will be sitting in the fireplace and therefore be enclosed by walls on all sides except the front I would suggest to look for a more convective stove. A radiant stove will heat up first the fireplace walls and it will take longer to get the heat into the actual room and then the house. A convective stove, potentially with a blower will provide heat to the house much faster. In addition, a convective stove will be safer when you are unsure whether you have combustibles behind the walls. As a rule of thumb: The closer the minimum clearances the more convective a stove is. Soapstone stoves usually have pretty large clearances because they emit more radiant heat. Cast-iron stoves with a steel firebox would be a good alternative. The BlazeKing Ashford 30 for example has pretty low requirements.