Heat going up or not?

[mogasse]

Hi there,
A dealer told me yesterday that you don't measure your real heat space by simply adding each floor's square feet together, but by counting only half the space of the floors above the stove, considering that the heat is going up.

But then again, some other people told me that heat doesn't go up that easy, that you have to make it go up, and that your stove is never too big, etc.

My new house has a 840 sf area with the stove in the basement and two stories up, with the bedrooms upstairs. So I have around 2400 sf, but with the first idea in mind, i'd be okay with a 2000 sf stove, rather than a 2500-3000 sf.

I was aiming at Pacific Energy, going all the way with the Summit, but the Super 27 might be what I need.

Am I going wrong?

I'm kind of new to real wood-burning, and i'm moving by the end of october, in time for heat season, so I want to make the right move!

Thanks a lot.

 

[mellow]

Stove is just one part of the solution, do you have dry wood for this year? If not I would figure on buying bio-bricks which will drive up your heating costs. I would buy the wood this year and the stove over the summer to get a deal.

 

[mogasse]

Stove is just one part of the solution, do you have dry wood for this year? If not I would figure on buying bio-bricks which will drive up your heating costs. I would buy the wood this year and the stove over the summer to get a deal.

Yes, there is about 6 cords of dry wood that are coming with the house. I just don't know yet how much i'll be burning.

 

[jeff_t]

Heat radiates in all directions. Warm air rises. You might find it difficult to get that warm air to the upper floors.

Heating the whole house from the basement is easy for some, and challenging for others. An uninsulated basement can lose 30% or more of the heat to the ground outside the bare block or concrete walls. If the basement is finished and used as living space, it may need to be uncomfortably warm to keep the rest of the house at an acceptable temp. You need an easy path for the warm air to make it to the upper floors, and an equally easy path for cool air to get to the basement and replace it. Some can do it with fans and others cut registers into the floor, which can be questionable as far as safety and codes are concerned. Fusible link safety dampers are usually required to keep smoke and heat from traveling between floors in the event of a fire.

It's best to have the stove where you spend the most time. If you can find someplace on the first floor the 27 might do it, depending on insulation and draft sealing. If you must put it in the basement, you should definitely think about the bigger stove.

 

[mellow]

What stove is currently installed at the house?

 

[Nick Mystic]

Welcome to the forum mogasse. There are quite a few factors at play here. First off, is your basement finished and insulated or just a lot of bare concrete and cinder block walls? If it is the latter you will lose much of your heat trying to heat the walls and floor as they transfer their heat outside. What sort of ceiling is in your basement? Is it going to block heat getting to the floor upstairs? Under the best of circumstances many people find it challenging to get heat from their basement stove to adequately heat the upper levels of their homes.

We have a two level home with stoves on both levels. In the shoulder season I will often just light a fire in the lower level stove to take the chill off the upstairs since a fire in the big Jotul F600 in the living room would heat things up too much. Those basement fires will usually raise the upstairs temperature by a few degrees, but this is during the time it might only be in the 40s and 50s outside.

Another major factor in moving heat around is your floor plan. An open floor plan will make it easier to move heat and and a lot of small rooms, more difficult. Many people have the best success moving warm basement air upstairs by using a box fan at the top of the basement steps blowing cool air down the steps toward the basement stove. This forces the warm air at the basement ceiling to start a convection current by flowing up the stairs to replace the cool air being removed. Good luck.

 

[Grisu]

My new house has a 840 sf area with the stove in the basement and two stories up, with the bedrooms upstairs. So I have around 2400 sf, but with the first idea in mind, i'd be okay with a 2000 sf stove, rather than a 2500-3000 sf.
I was aiming at Pacific Energy, going all the way with the Summit, but the Super 27 might be what I need.

Don't go by the sqft numbers when picking a stove. There are so many variables (insulation level, winter temps, ceiling height, preferred indoor temps etc.) that cannot be captured in just one number. That's the reason most manufacturers give a wide range in sqft which makes that spec rather meaningless.

You have a large home in a pretty cold climate. The Summit would be appropriate if you want to have a chance of heating the whole house. As others have pointed out already it is hard to predict if the warm air will flow to the upstairs. If you don't spend much time in the basement I would think about putting the stove in the main living area.

 

[mogasse]

Welcome to the forum mogasse. There are quite a few factors at play here. First off, is your basement finished and insulated or just a lot of bare concrete and cinder block walls? If it is the latter you will lose much of your heat trying to heat the walls and floor as they transfer their heat outside. What sort of ceiling is in your basement? Is it going to block heat getting to the floor upstairs? Under the best of circumstances many people find it challenging to get heat from their basement stove to adequately heat the upper levels of their homes.

We have a two level home with stoves on both levels. In the shoulder season I will often just light a fire in the lower level stove to take the chill off the upstairs since a fire in the big Jotul F600 in the living room would heat things up too much. Those basement fires will usually raise the upstairs temperature by a few degrees, but this is during the time it might only be in the 40s and 50s outside.

Another major factor in moving heat around is your floor plan. An open floor plan will make it easier to move heat and and a lot of small rooms, more difficult. Many people have the best success moving warm basement air upstairs by using a box fan at the top of the basement steps blowing cool air down the steps toward the basement stove. This forces the warm air at the basement ceiling to start a convection current by flowing up the stairs to replace the cool air being removed. Good luck.

Thank you, Nick. Here's an idea of what the basement actually looks like. Isolated, but not finished. The ceiling of the basement is the floor of the next level. The actual owner, heating with the shown stove, says he never had to even use a blower. But then again, he also says he's burning 15 cords every winter.

 

[mogasse]

What stove is currently installed at the house?

I've posted a photo on another message. I don't know what it it is, but the insurance company won't let me keep it.

 

[Nick Mystic]

Your staircase is situated similar to ours. The previous owner of our home told us something similar: "I heated the whole house just using the stove in the lower level. When we first moved in I tried doing the same with no success. The lower level stove is a Woodstock Classic and the stove was apparently burned so hard that the top baffle appears to have partially melted away (or burned away) and has about an inch sag to it! So, maybe he did fire it hot enough to heat the whole house, but I don't burn like that.

 

[mogasse]

It's best to have the stove where you spend the most time. If you can find someplace on the first floor the 27 might do it, depending on insulation and draft sealing. If you must put it in the basement, you should definitely think about the bigger stove.

We'll have to keep it in the basement, that's for sure. As for the vent, there are some traps that go all the way up both floors. I'm wondering if the Summit isn't too big... I'm currently looking at the Osburn 2300.

 

[jeff_t]

Looks like that is probably vented to an exterior masonry chimney? If there isn't a 6" stainless liner in it, you're going to want one. Modern stoves need good draft to work properly, and a cold, oversized, exterior chimney isn't very conducive.

I'm pretty sure the Summit will not be too big. Nor will any stove.

 

[Seanm]

Welcome to the forum. I see that there is foam insulation on the walls. Is that throughout the entire basement? Is the floor all bare concrete or is that just the hearth I see? I tried looking up your area on Environment Canadas weather page and couldnt find it. I was trying to compare your temperatures to the East Kootenays of BC. If I had to do things over I would have gone for the summit although I really like my super 27. If you get -30c and colder like I think you do you will likely find that the super wont heat your home. If you wish to supplement your main heat source during those temps then it will do fine. If you want to warm your house in warmer winter temps you will likely do ok. The top floor will probably be a challenge though. These stoves have great burn times for non cat stoves. We have our stove in the basement which is fully insulated and carpeted living space with office, daughters bedroom and rec room. We have an open staircase that allows our open floor plan upstairs to be nicely heated during winter months unless it gets real cold.

 

[mogasse]

Looks like that is probably vented to an exterior masonry chimney? If there isn't a 6" stainless liner in it, you're going to want one. Modern stoves need good draft to work properly, and a cold, oversized, exterior chimney isn't very conducive.

I'm pretty sure the Summit will not be too big. Nor will any stove.

The chimney modern prefab 7''. Everything is alright, over here. Just need a reducer from 7'' to 6''.

 

[Grisu]

The chimney modern prefab 7''. Everything is alright, over here. Just need a reducer from 7'' to 6''.

Not necessarily. Make sure it is approved for 2100 F (HT) for wood stove use. Any brand/model tags on it?

And go for a 3 cu ft firebox stove. You can always make a smaller fire in a larger stove when you need less heat. It is tough to do it the other way.

 

[Huntindog1]

Your staircase is situated similar to ours. The previous owner of our home told us something similar: "I heated the whole house just using the stove in the lower level. When we first moved in I tried doing the same with no success. The lower level stove is a Woodstock Classic and the stove was apparently burned so hard that the top baffle appears to have partially melted away (or burned away) and has about an inch sag to it! So, maybe he did fire it hot enough to heat the whole house, but I don't burn like that.

Interesting information as there was at one time a guy on here that replaced an older stove that was basically a cast iron stove that could put out alot of heat. It was one of those older stoves that didnt have a very well insulated firebox for improved emissions. He could heat his upper levels of his house easily with that stove. He then went and bought a NC30 stove with the newer technology , insulated firebox, ceramic baffle plate , and air tubes in the top. He complained he couldnt heat his house upstairs anymore even tho the NC30 is a great stove it doesnt put out as harsh of heat nor has as of high peak in its heating curve. Now the NC30 is a steel stove and has a higher heat curve peak than say a soapstone stove or a CAT stove but not as harsh heat as a old plain steel stove or cast iron stove. I heat from the basement and from my experiences it takes that higher heat curve peak to help drive heat upstairs. As a little science lesson is that its always the difference of potential that gets things going and moving. So during that high peak period of higher heat output and what people call a harsher heat the difference in heat from there at the stove and the cooler air moving down stairs replacing the hot air rising , it just gets more done in warming the upstairs.

I am sure like you said the guy was able to heat the upstairs better as he worked the stove harder burnt it hotter at times and got the air flows moving better.

Alot of times during really cold weather when I come home from work , I will load the stove up and burn it hotter for the time before I go to bed as I know its only like a 5 or 6 hours time frame and the stove can burnt at a higher rate as I dont need that 8 to 10 hour slow burn. This basically increases the heat upstairs in my house and a house will store heat in its mass. So there are ways to cycle your stove and burn it differently at times to keep your house warmer during colder weather.

 

[mogasse]

Not necessarily. Make sure it is approved for 2100 F (HT) for wood stove use. Any brand/model tags on it?

And go for a 3 cu ft firebox stove. You can always make a smaller fire in a larger stove when you need less heat. It is tough to do it the other way.

I don't have the brand, but it is a 2100, that, i know.

Do you know something about Osburn Stoves? Wondering how the 2300 and 2400 are doing, versus the Summit.

 

[jharkin]

Every year we get new members having trouble heating an entire house from a basement install. Folks in he 1800s had trouble with this and invented distributed central heat for a reason


In all seriousness... its not easy getting hot air to spread across 2 floors evenly, let alone 3. I live in a 1400 sq ft. house burning a stove designed for 1800, siting smack in the middle of the main floor and still the far rooms are cold. Stoves are space heaters, they work best when situated in the space you want heated.

 

[mogasse]

Welcome to the forum. I see that there is foam insulation on the walls. Is that throughout the entire basement? Is the floor all bare concrete or is that just the hearth I see? I tried looking up your area on Environment Canadas weather page and couldnt find it. I was trying to compare your temperatures to the East Kootenays of BC. If I had to do things over I would have gone for the summit although I really like my super 27. If you get -30c and colder like I think you do you will likely find that the super wont heat your home. If you wish to supplement your main heat source during those temps then it will do fine. If you want to warm your house in warmer winter temps you will likely do ok. The top floor will probably be a challenge though. These stoves have great burn times for non cat stoves. We have our stove in the basement which is fully insulated and carpeted living space with office, daughters bedroom and rec room. We have an open staircase that allows our open floor plan upstairs to be nicely heated during winter months unless it gets real cold.

Hi Sean, maybe you'll find more about my area by looking for Saint-André-d'Argenteuil (thanks for that, by the way!) And what you see on the photo is what you get for all the basement, concrete and foam insulation. Some air traps, a staircase and some cracks in the floor as well. The more I think about it, i think I'll go for a mix of wood and electric heat, and see how it goes.

 

[begreen]

Thank you, Nick. Here's an idea of what the basement actually looks like. Isolated, but not finished. The ceiling of the basement is the floor of the next level. The actual owner, heating with the shown stove, says he never had to even use a blower. But then again, he also says he's burning 15 cords every winter.

Wow, nice old house. It looks like the home was framed without power tools.

Uninsulated walls are where a lot of the heat is going to head outdoors. I'd get the Summit. You should see a nice reduction in wood consumption. Anything that can be done to improve insulation and sealing around windows, doors and the rim joist will help reduce wood consumption further. Have the chimney professionally cleaned and inspected for safety.

 

[Swedishchef]

he also says he's burning 15 cords every winter.

Welcome to the forums!

WOW! I hope it's 15 face cords and not 15 true cords! Heating 3 storeys of a house can be difficult with a wood stove. A furnace would get the job done no questions asked!!

That being said, what's the square footage per floor?

I have an Osburn 2300 and it works great. I love the big size, the huge window and the bypass to help get the stove going. One thing to note, if you're trying to heat the entire house with a stove, the room where the stove is located will be some hot! You won't be wearing much clothing while in that room As others have mentioned, make sure your wood is seasoned/dry. New EPA stoves won't burn wet wood like those old smoke dragons did (in an unsafe manner).

Cheers!

Andrew

 

[mogasse]

That being said, what's the square footage per floor?

Hi Andrew, not being on place yet, I have a hard time figuring out the exact space, but the house is 21X40, with two stories and a basement. The last floor has only two rooms and a bathroom.

I figure I will use both wood ans electricity, since we often work on the road. I assume the place near the stove to be pretty hot, but it's not really a living space. I'm glad to talk to an Osburn owner, as I am considering it instead of a Summit, which seems to be a favorite, but a little pricey. I like the prices of the Osburn, seems like a good stove, but then again, can't really figure the differences between the 2300 and the 2400.

And then there's the wood furnace, never even thought about it until yesterday. What about it? I don't know anything about the wood furnaces!

 

[begreen]

The Osburn 2400 is slightly larger and takes a 20" log instead of 18". If the cost is driving the decision consider getting the Drolet Myriad or HT2000. Drolet is a value line made by the same company that makes Osburn. They are good stoves too.

 

[brad wilton]

Bonjour mogasse,like the saying goes you can burn small fires in a big stove but not big fire in small stove .hows the isolation on the main living areas ,i live in old house too all stone 1780's

 

[Swedishchef]

Hi Andrew, not being on place yet, I have a hard time figuring out the exact space, but the house is 21X40, with two stories and a basement. The last floor has only two rooms and a bathroom.

I figure I will use both wood ans electricity, since we often work on the road. I assume the place near the stove to be pretty hot, but it's not really a living space. I'm glad to talk to an Osburn owner, as I am considering it instead of a Summit, which seems to be a favorite, but a little pricey. I like the prices of the Osburn, seems like a good stove, but then again, can't really figure the differences between the 2300 and the 2400.

And then there's the wood furnace, never even thought about it until yesterday. What about it? I don't know anything about the wood furnaces!

Both companies make great stoves. I purchased an Osburn because my installer had Osburn stoves for sale.

As BG stated, the 2400 is slightly bigger and takes longer logs. Considering I cut all my wood to 16 inches, that extra 2 inches doesn't make a huge difference to me. The 2400 does not have a bypass (2300 does). I believe the baffles are slightly different but other than that, it's nearly the same size (2400 is slightly bigger).

That is what we do as well. Wood heat supplements the electricity. Especially in Quebec, our electricity rates are some of the cheapest in North America.

Andrew