Heat pump reviews anywhere online?

[wahoowad]

I am in the process of getting heat pump quotes from at least 4 HVAC firms in my town. Most are recommending Trane, and at least I will be able to easily compare quotes for this brand. One is recommending a York. I can't seem to find any kind of Consumer Reports style comparisons of brands/models.

The York looks good on paper when you compare all the features, ratings and price as compared to Trane, but I don't know jack about heat pump brands. For some reason the York being recommended only comes in full ton sizes (like 2 or 3 ton, not 2.5 ton). My Trane quotes are all for 2.5 ton units. I've heard not to get too much heat pump, so is a half ton up considered too much? The sales guy said the 2 stage compressor on the York made that OK.

 

[BrotherBart]

Don't know guy but I will be interested in what you find out. Our heat pump died some time years ago from lack of use and old age. Now in the next year or so I need to replace it and the roof too. Groan.

What kinda prices are they quoting down your way?

 

[BrotherBart]

Just found lots of reviews here.

http://www.furnacecompare.com/heat-pumps/reviews/

 

[wahoowad]

I am getting both the heat pump and inside air handler replaced.

York "premium package" 3 ton system with 17 seer 2 stage compressor and variable speed air handler = $6758 (and qualifies for federal 1500 tax credit)

Lots of Trane configurations, but I'm eyeing the 2.5 ton single stage compressor with variable speed air handler = $6200 (and possibly qualifies for federal 1500 tax credit)

My problem is that there are many different air handlers and each one affects the overall SEER/HSPF calculations. I have a closet that may not accomodate all the different air handlers and not all my sales people are being very forthcoming in their quotes if the air handler they chose will still meet the federal tax credit guidelines AND fit my closet the correct way.

Lots of options, lots of configurations. Higher SEER ratings and variable speed compressors start to add 25% to 100% increase in price.

 

[wahoowad]

And sure enough, after pushing my York sales guy on the details I find out the air handler that fits my closet will reduce the SEER rating and exclude me from the tax credit. He wasn't going to share that with me although seemed to be aware of it when I asked. So the York option (as quoted) is now less appealing. I was pretty impressed it had a 17 SEER, now he says it will be 14.75.

 

[BrotherBart]

I thought a SEER of 14 and EEU of 12 qualified with a package system.

 

[wahoowad]

I'm told it has to meet all of the following:

15 SEER
12.5 EER
8.5 HSPF

I don't fully understand what they are, but I don't feel like I need to. They are efficiancy ratings to me and my chosen unit either meets it or it doesn't.

I have gotten additional quotes since yesterday and every sales guy has factored in an air handler that is too wide. My current air handler is in a closet (with a louvered door for air flow) underneath my stairs. I currently have room to slip sideways past my air handler and utilize the space behind it (under the stairs) for storage. I also have some exposed plumbing pipes back there and need the ability to slip back there to access water controls for my first floor bathtub and any plumbing inspection or maintenance that might be needed. But all the air handlers they are recommending in their quotes would fully block off my access. I just wish they had discussed this or pointed it out in their quote. I'm now having to go back and ask them all to requote for the smaller (but still properly sized) air handler. The smaller air handler tends to drop the efficiency ratings so I'm not meeting the tax credit requirements. Unfortuantely I guess my need for access of that storage and plumbing pipes exceeds the $1500 tax credit I could get. THe 'smaller' one isn't really smaller, it is the right sized one but they all oversized me to the next larger air handler to get the tax credit.

Also now seeing near identical quotes that are ~$2,000 apart, which is like 25% to 33% difference!

 

[BrotherBart]

I have been going by what they say here:

http://www.energystar.gov/index.cfm?c=products.pr_tax_credits

Split Systems:
HSPF >= 8.5
EER >= 12.5
SEER >= 15

Package systems:
HSPF >= 8
EER >= 12
SEER >= 14

 

[wahoowad]

Hmmm. I wonder what constitutes a split system vs. package system?

Mine is 'split' by it being an outside heatpump and indoor air handler. Does that mean split?

Mine is a 'package' system by it providing both my heat and A/C, and I'm buying package deal with both outdoor/indoor unit coming from same vendor.

Are either of these right right definition?

 

[BrotherBart]

Well, it looks like I am still learning here. Seems you and me both need "split" systems. Groan.

"Packaged heat pumps

The packaged heat pump is a self-contained unit that allows the compressor and both heat exchangers to be located outside your home. The unit uses ductwork to heat and cool your entire home. Several types of packaged heat pumps, called packaged terminal, self-contained through-the-wall, or window heat pumps are used for single rooms and don't need ductwork.
Split-system heat pumps

The second type, called the split system heat pump, is the more common of the two air source choices. In this type the indoor air-handling unit and heat exchanger are separate from the compressor and the outdoor exchanger. This allows you more options on where you install it. Whole-house heating and cooling occurs via ductwork.

There are also two special kinds of special split-system heat pumps. The triple-function heat pump not only warms and cools your home, it also heats your water. By removing heat from the system's refrigerant and using it to heat water, it provides essentially free water heating during the summer and a much more efficient use of electricity for heating water in the winter.

The free-delivery split-system heat pump has one outdoor unit and one or more indoor units. It allows you to heat or cool individual areas in your home by circulating refrigerant to each indoor unit. Each area has its own thermostat. No ductwork is needed."

 

[wahoowad]

Can anybody tell me the differnce between a 2.5 ton and 3 ton system? If most salespeople say my house calls for a 2.5 ton unit would a 3 ton unit be too big? I didn't know if half a ton was that big of a difference. One vendor only has a 3 ton unit in the manufacturer they are recommending so he recommneded the 3 ton unit. I'm trying to decide if this is appropriate or not.

 

[d.n.f.]

I would love to help you but I can't.
I have been looking into heat pumps for a few weeks now and all I can say is that the industry sucks. It is very hard to get information and one guy says this system sucks while another guy says the first system sucks etc. Lot of sucking and not much plain information for the consumer.

Please post what you finally get and why if you don't mind. I have read some pretty crummy reviews on some pretty popular products.

Usually I have very little problem comparing apples to apples in most things I buy and I do like to research things before I buy. I must have a mental block about heat pumps. Most confusing thing I have ever looked into.

Sorry I need a coffee.

 

[Later]

Try the questions here
http://hvac-talk.com/vbb/forumdisplay.php?f=1

They won't help DIYers but they will answer the types of questions you posted.

 

[d.n.f.]

[quote author="Retired Guy" date="1241838727"]Try the questions here
http://hvac-talk.com/vbb/forumdisplay.php?f=1

They won't help DIYers but they will answer the types of questions you posted.[/quote

Thanks for that. Will check it out.

 

[Hogwildz]

Can anybody tell me the differnce between a 2.5 ton and 3 ton system? If most salespeople say my house calls for a 2.5 ton unit would a 3 ton unit be too big? I didn't know if half a ton was that big of a difference. One vendor only has a 3 ton unit in the manufacturer they are recommending so he recommneded the 3 ton unit. I'm trying to decide if this is appropriate or not.

Typically 1 ton covers 1,200 sf. This is a standard base to start at and a heat loss calculation should be prepared. 2.5 ton = 3,000sf, 3 ton = 3,600sf.
Too small won't cool on the hottest days, too larg will cycle too much and waster energy and also not cool properly. The 2 stages are more expensive because they save you more money. When the cooling load is not high, it will run at a lower speed therefore using less electricity and save money. A single stage runs full bore until set temp is reached, then shut off, then run full bore, then shut off.

 

[imiller1974]

Negative dude. It's 500-600 sqft per ton, not 1200. The best way is to do a manual J calculation, but most the websites want you to pay for the software to do the calculation.

 

[d.n.f.]

Negative dude. It's 500-600 sqft per ton, not 1200. The best way is to do a manual J calculation, but most the websites want you to pay for the software to do the calculation.

See, this is the crap I am talking about. Pay for a freaking calculation. Sheesh.

 

[Gooserider]

While there are plenty of places where you can pay for a Manual J, and it is an EXCELLENT peice of advice to do one, there are also a lot of sites where one can get stuff to do one for free... Some are relatively crude, in that they do it based on the "whole house" method, as opposed to a room by room evaluation, and don't give as many options about house construction, but they will at least get you an idea.

I would frankly insist that when asking ANY vendors for a bid, they do a Manual J - so part of what you would be wanting one your self is to "keep them honest" and see if they get the same numbers you do.

Note that my understanding is that in order to qualify for most of the energy efficiency incentives out there, you will need to have at least one Manual J in order to show that the purchased system is the right size, or that whatever other improvements were put in are appropriate.

If you do the search, you should find several suggested links here to appropriate sites. If that doesn't work, you could also try posting on "The Wall" over at HeatingHelp.com. I know that there was an excellent program available as a free download over at the SlantFin boiler / radiator website, but that has been taken down lately, with a promise of a new improved version "real soon now" - however if you ask around it is possible that someone still has a copy they can share...

Gooserider

 

[Hogwildz]

Negative dude. It's 500-600 sqft per ton, not 1200. The best way is to do a manual J calculation, but most the websites want you to pay for the software to do the calculation.

I may stand corrected.
And yes a Manual J is recommended. Many companies don't take the time to do a manual J.
Of course where ya live, type of windows, insualtion etc all adds to the equation.
Its a shame many HVAC contractos don't want to take the time to do the manual J and do it right.
I had a couple walk through, and guess base on house size. Needless to say, those bids went into the trash.

 

[RIDGERUNNER30]

I purchased a goodman 15 seer 3ton unit last year for about 4,800. The reason i chose the goodman brand is they have a lifetime warranity on the compressor and tens years on all other parts. so far it has worked perfect, good luck on your choice,It's a big investment

 

[maverick06]

I have had a trane xr14 or 15, i forget. Anyways, its awesome. I have had it for 2.5 years and it saves me a fortune! It does put out "less heat" than my oil burner (backup heat). The air exausts the system at about 90F but the oil exhausts at something way higher 120F??? not sure. Anyways, point being, it will run longer than the oil heat does, also, snuggling up to the heater vent is less enjoyable.

Now, the efficiency of the unit varies based on the temperature difference. The SEER is based on a seasonal average. So the warmer it is outside, the less it costs to heat your house. Since I buy my wood, I use the heat pump in early fall and late winter since its cheaper than the wood stove. Regardless, its massively cheaper than the oil burner!

Rick