Help / advice on ideal steel issues

[Z32burner]

I have an ideal steel installed in my basement. Rear vent through a short piece of pipe to a 90 / clean out that goes into a 6” stainless liner installed in my chimney. The stove has a few minor problems (mainly ash and smoke spillage when loading and cleaning) that are an inconvenience, the main issue is back puffing when the cat is engaged.

Once the stove is up to temp, and the cat is engaged, the stove will intermittently puff and make the house smell of smoke. i have tried various air flow levels and can’t seem to dial it in to where this doesn’t happen, other than increase the airflow which shortens the burn cycle. Anyone else experience this? Would an outside air setup help?

I am guessing the basement is too tight. I need to crack a window any time I load it to prevent major ash and smoke spillage in the room. Even with a window open, it still gets an annoying amount of ash in the room. The ash and smoke are causing very poor air quality in the house, and it’s to the point of considering another stove.

 

[begreen]

Draft is weak and challenged by the installation. A basement install with three 90º turns in the flue path within a few feet is bound to be troublesome. The basement sounds like it may be a negative pressure zone if opening a nearby window helps. An outside air supply, not directly connected, but terminating a few inches from the stove's intake may help that.

Before changing the stove, try changing it to top vent and eliminate the bottom elbow. You can also eliminate the second 90º turn by using 45º elbows to create an offset. This should make a notable improvement. These changes together with fresh air may help enough to make the situation manageable. It's a good heater, but it needs proper draft to perform well.

 

[Z32burner]

Maybe I described it poorly but I’m not sure where you are figuring 3 90s. There is one 90 to the chimney liner.

 

[begreen]

Ah, the fireplace was not in the description. I made the mistake of assuming the 6" liner was connected to a thimble.

That makes a solution more of a challenge. Rear venting doesn't help. There are multiple factors that can make the basement a negative pressure zone. A common one is air leakage out of the house on the floors above. Second story leaky windows, attic doors or vents can cause this. The other things are competing appliances in the basement like a furnace, oil/gas hot water heater, clothes dryer. Bath and kitchen fans will exacerbate the situation. So will a radon system. Sometimes the only solution is to pressurize the basement with an HRV or move the stove upstairs.

 

[Highbeam]

Lots of stove installations using that detail are very successful. Is the liner very tall? Insulated?

Are you opening the bypass every time you open the door?

It’s not the stoves fault. Any stove will puke smoke if the chimney can’t suck it up.

 

[begreen]

This is more of a chimney/flue issue than the stove. Changing the stove out may end up with the same results or worse.

A non-commercial service in support of responsible home heating with wood - How Chimneys Work

The Wood Heat Organization was formed to support the public in the responsible use of wood energy in the home. We fulfill our mandate by providing reliable information, by conducting research into wood heating-related issues and by representing the public interest in discussions of policies that...

woodheat.org

 

[Z32burner]

Lots of stove installations using that detail are very successful. Is the liner very tall? Insulated?

Are you opening the bypass every time you open the door?

It’s not the stoves fault. Any stove will puke smoke if the chimney can’t suck it up.

The chimney is aprox 28’ tall. It is uninsulated. Yes, the stove is designed so you can’t open the door without disengaging the cat. The front loading door is a design flaw in my option. The exiting exhaust gases flow right where the door opens, so not ideal for keeping the smoke contained

 

[Z32burner]

This is more of a chimney/flue issue than the stove. Changing the stove out may end up with the same results or worse.

A non-commercial service in support of responsible home heating with wood - How Chimneys Work

The Wood Heat Organization was formed to support the public in the responsible use of wood energy in the home. We fulfill our mandate by providing reliable information, by conducting research into wood heating-related issues and by representing the public interest in discussions of policies that...

woodheat.org

Except for the fact that I had a hearthstone heritage installed in the same location with the same set up for two years with no issues. I replaced it because it was old and warn. The IS has had problems since day one. I know the basement is tight and the rear vent is not ideal, but it seems the stove should have less problems than a worn out heritage i got from Craigslist.

 

[begreen]

The Ideal Steel is way more efficient. That efficiency comes with the cost of a cooler flue but the benefit of more heat in the room. However, a cooler flue temp of say 350º in this case is causing a weaker draft. That's why I posted the link. There is a case study there that goes into more detail. The fact that the liner is not insulated is not helping. The old Heritages were the opposite, sometimes running with 800º+ flue temps. If the stove was in poor repair, possibly even higher.

A non-commercial service in support of responsible home heating with wood - Case Study: The terrifying hot backdraft

The Wood Heat Organization was formed to support the public in the responsible use of wood energy in the home. We fulfill our mandate by providing reliable information, by conducting research into wood heating-related issues and by representing the public interest in discussions of policies that...

woodheat.org

The front loading door is a design flaw in my option. The exiting exhaust gases flow right where the door opens, so not ideal for keeping the smoke contained

Most stoves are front loaders with a baffle. This is a common design and not an issue when the draft is within spec.

 

[Highbeam]

28’ cold brick chimney with a 6” uninsulated liner and an extremely efficient (low flue temperatures) stove in a basement.

I too had a heritage and it never rolled smoke into the room. Now, same chimney but a top efficiency stove and now I get rollout during hot reloads.

For our chimneys to really suck hard they need to be hot and that’s not easy with these high efficiency stoves. I’ll bet that flue temperatures at your chimney cap 28’ up are super cold which creates a plug.

Before opening the door, can you try running the intake on high for 5-10 minutes to get some suckage happening?

 

[tabner]

Can we confirm wood moisture reading too?
I have noticed on my setup, backpuffing is way more of an issue when wood is wet. And I’ve also noticed smoke rollout on reloads is more likely when the coals left in there are from damp wood - which seems like it shouldn’t make sense, but I definitely experience it. Perhaps it’s just the result of a cooler flue from less complete combustion.

 

[Z32burner]

The Ideal Steel is way more efficient. That efficiency comes with the cost of a cooler flue but the benefit of more heat in the room. However, a cooler flue temp of say 350º in this case is causing a weaker draft. That's why I posted the link. There is a case study there that goes into more detail. The fact that the liner is not insulated is not helping. The old Heritages were the opposite, sometimes running with 800º+ flue temps. If the stove was in poor repair, possibly even higher.

A non-commercial service in support of responsible home heating with wood - Case Study: The terrifying hot backdraft

The Wood Heat Organization was formed to support the public in the responsible use of wood energy in the home. We fulfill our mandate by providing reliable information, by conducting research into wood heating-related issues and by representing the public interest in discussions of policies that...

woodheat.org

Most stoves are front loaders with a baffle. This is a common design and not an issue when the draft is within spec.

This makes sense. Is pour in chimney insulation any good in your opinion? I’m guessing the best course of action on my end is an outside air kit to help with the neg pressure and get some insulation on the liner. Hoping the pour in is worth the effort because replacing the liner isn’t ideal

 

[mellow]

Do you have the room in the chimney to run an insulated 6" down it? It could be as easy as pulling the liner up and out and insulating it and pulling it back down, I did that with mine.

 

[Todd]

Check your clean out tee cap, could be sucking air.

 

[begreen]

This makes sense. Is pour in chimney insulation any good in your opinion? I’m guessing the best course of action on my end is an outside air kit to help with the neg pressure and get some insulation on the liner. Hoping the pour in is worth the effort because replacing the liner isn’t ideal

Pour-in at this point will be hit or miss because there will be places where the liner is touching the masonry. It would be better to pull the liner and sleeve it with insulation, then reinstall it.