Help me pick a new wood furnace add-on please

[j7art2]

It's time to replace my old pre-EPA wood furnace add-on as well as my normal home propane furnace.

Current setup is a terracotta lined masonry chimney, 7x13 rectangular flue, external on the house, approximately 25-30 feet tall attached to an olde Energy Mate in my basement that runs in parallel with my Amana 90 II furnace that just took a dump on me.

I'm a bit stuck here now -- Ideally I know I need to line my chimney with a 6" stainless liner. I've never had a creosote issue with my current chimney, and with snow and ice on the ground paired with a 12x12 pitch roof, Installing a chimney liner simply isn't going to happen until spring, so some of the super high efficiency wood furnaces are completely off the table because of that.

House is 1800 SQFT, basement, middle floor, upper level. Cold air intake installed in the basement to help my current unit burn cleaner as I simply didn't have enough combustible air in the basement.

So here's the scoop. I contacted 12 heating and cooling places, and NONE of them will install a new wood furnace for me except for one. He said he'd install it exactly to manufacturer's specifications which I'm completely cool with, but I'd be responsible for buying the unit and getting it in the basement.

The problem is, I have no way to determine what my draft is, and I want to make sure I'm getting the unit that best suits my chimney both now and after it's lined.

I've narrowed it down to the US Stove 1551E or Englander 28-4000.

The Englander requires no greater than .05 in water column, the 1551E is no greater than .06 in water column.

I understand the 1551E is likely going to be more efficient as it has a bunch of automatic dampers on it etc, whereas the 28-4000 is just an NC30 in a different shell. The 1551 appears to be a lot bigger (I think) and my concern is electronics tend to wear out eventually. Damper servos, etc make me a little nervous. I don't know anything about electronics, and just to heat my dang house.

Radiant heat doesn't matter at all to me since it's going to be in the basement -- my concern is simply what's the better choice for creosote build up to get me through the winter until I can line my chimney in the spring.

I don't have the wood to continue to run my Energy Mate alone all winter as I normally run about 65% wood/ 35% propane.


I imagine the larger WC is likely "better" or less stringent for a bigger chimney like mine, but maybe not, and I know there's a lot of science that goes into WC, but any direction would be great.

Thanks!

 

[brenndatomu]

Boy, I dunno much about the 1551E specifically, but I do know that USSC has a reputation for bottom end stuff...and good luck if you need customer service from them.
The Englander should be fine, as you say, it is basically a NC30.
But the real issue here is your chimney...as you said, it really needs lined. I think that is gonna be a real issue no matter what you put in because most of the new stuff just strips so much heat from the fire that there is not enough waste heat to keep that big ole flue warm...which causes all kinds of draft issues...and creosote. You could try it, but in my experience, this very seldom works on the newer units.
Have you thought about trying to find a nice used old school wood furnace for sale? That may get you by 'til spring...

 

[blades]

not a fan of ussc ( chi com units ), Englander good company. Friend has the current furnace from them working well- it Replaced an old smoke dragon. There is the Tundra II made in Canada- Drolet is mfg name or the Caddy different mfg but both owned by same conglomerate. they have been very good to deal with by all accounts. Then there is the Kuuma by Lamppa mfg in MN. this unit meets all the new specs coming out from the EPA. both Drolet and Kuuma have units that are addons to your primary unit.

 

[j7art2]

Drolet, Shelter, and a few others all require stainless liners, and the guy won't even install it then. The others say they can at least be installed on masonry.

Seems the US Stove, Ashley AF1500E and Vogelzang 1501 are all the same unit with very minor changes.

I'm kind of in a tough spot here, and whatever I get is going on plastic since it's almost Christmas, so getting something used isn't going to work.

Would a draft inducer help keep flue temps warm?

My current unit doesn't even have a blower on the back and uses the blower for the propane furnace. It's s really bad setup.. basically I have a transformer or relay on the wood furnace that seems to be short circuiting the mainboard on my propane furnace. It's such a cluster. Whatever I get next I absolutely do not want tied into each other. I tend to think the Englander might do me a little better, but I'm not exactly sure. the US stove has two blowers compared to the englanders one and doesn't have a cold air return. it might make for an easier install and no electric parts means easier operation?

I will see if he has a manometer to measure draft. It seems to pull well, especially with my in line flue damper adjusted properly.

 

[brenndatomu]

Draft inducers are a maintenance nightmare.
Here, you need your own manometer, they are cheap and you really should have one mounted on the wall to monitor draft everytime you load...here's a pretty good deal on one that is easy to install and use...many of us wood furnace guys here have these. https://www.ebay.com/itm/Dwyer-Mark...h=item4b564ea2f2:g:gfkAAOSwqOFb-coI:rk:1:pf:0

 

[brenndatomu]

The problem with a large masonry chimney is that they draft ok when you are running the stove hard, but then when you cut things back for the "cruise" burn after things come up to temp, the chimney temp and therefore the draft falls...and creates creosote. You could try it as is...you never know, you may get away with it, a few people do, but I wouldn't count on it.
A lined/insulated chimney always works better than a oversized masonry one does.

 

[brenndatomu]

Many chimney sweeps will install liners... @bholler maybe can tell you how to find an installer in your area...heck, some may even install stoves

 

[Highbeam]

In your shoes, I'd install the Englander. Seriously you have no heat and this weekend is December.

The installer can measure draft in the pipe between your furnace and the masonry. He will also inspect the masonry and confirm the installation is suitable/safe.

 

[brenndatomu]

He will also inspect the masonry and confirm the installation is suitable/safe.

Hopefully...you've been around here long enough to know there are a ton of hack installers out there too...

 

[Highbeam]

Hopefully...you've been around here long enough to know there are a ton of hack installers out there too...

Yes. I actually don't trust any of them until they prove they deserve the trust. I don't even let other people change the oil in my truck.

However, with a forum member that seems relatively inexperienced, the professional installer is licensed and insured and seems to at least be interested in reading the manual. The Englander will almost certainly be safer and less creosotey than the old furnace.

 

[brenndatomu]

Nevermind on that Dwyer I linked to above, I just noticed it is missing the gauge oil, and that can be a little pricey to buy separate. Here's a better one...https://www.ebay.com/itm/Manometer-...=item3b2014a7a4:g:hb8AAOSws29byiCu:rk:12:pf:0
A Dwyer Mark II model 25 is what you are looking for...

 

[brenndatomu]

The Englander will almost certainly be safer and less creosotey than the old furnace.

Yup, agreed

 

[j7art2]

I attempted to contact the only chimney sweep in our area with the national chimney guild credentials or what not a few times and despite his 5 star ratings he never got back with me. I doubt he'd come do an install now with snow and ice on the ground but maybe...?

It's terracotta lined now, but I'm thinking that's not as insulated as it should be.

I definitely don't have a creosote issue now but I have a fire box big enough i could sit inside of (if I could fit through the door) and I run that sucker hot with generally about 6-7 4" diameter logs or so and get about 4-5 hour burn times. Needless to say I go through ungodly amounts of wood. Lol.

Alternatively, I could get something like a Vogelzang VG1301 which is up to 2000 sqft and just run it hot, but my concern is that it's gonna be a little undersized for my house and when it reaches -30, it just won't keep up.

I do have wood heat right now, just not propane. The blower override works even if the board is shot. Bad time for this to happen though for sure.

 

[brenndatomu]

What about just replacing the LP furnace now, and the wood furnace later. When they install the new LP furnace they can fix the wiring issue...all there should be is a relay that turns the LP blower on when the wood furnace gets hot...pretty simple really. If that is taking the board out on your current LP furnace something is really screwed up. I though you were saying that your wood furnace was bad too.
FIY, don't oversize your LP furnace...you are better off with a size that runs longer than one that cycles a lot. Or if you can afford it, go 2 stage.

Another thought, do you need a wood furnace? Could you make a stove work? Cheaper and way less wood consumption if you can pull it off...

 

[j7art2]

Wood stove won't work in the corner of the basement. It's all ducted in, but come to think of it, I think an Englander is exactly what I have now just a more efficient version and with it's own separate blower on the back either than using the propane blower.

This operates via intake fan (Englander would be naturally aspirated I imagine) and limit switch/thermostat.

I had half a mind to add secondary burn tubes to mine but I like my home insurance. Essentially I think that's what I'd be getting with the englander.

The first year we moved here, we didn't use wood and heat was $3000 that year. I might not have a choice though.

This is my current setup.

 

[brenndatomu]

No I meant a wood stove upstairs.
That LP furnace doesn't look that old...it can't be fixed?
Do you trust your HVAC guy? Far too often they sell you new when the old can be fixed...a knowledgeable and honest HVAC is worth his weight in gold...right @STIHLY DAN ?!

 

[j7art2]

This is the only HVAC guy willing to touch a wood furnace in almost a 50 mile radius from me. It was my suggestion to replace both rather than just try and fix it again. The last 4 years we've had issues with this propane furnace. I'm actually going with a different company who does do wood, rather than the company that installed the propane unit to begin with.

The guy is very highly rated and out of all of the heating and cooling companies I've called he's the only one that actually listened to what I said rather than blow me off. I kid you not, half the guys I called seemed to have absolutely no interest in even letting me tell them what is going on and just wanted to get off the phone with me as fast as they could.

The previous company that's been out to fix it the last 4 years has just blindly replaced parts and have absolutely no idea why they keep on going. I'm starting to think it's the relay/trandfortra that sits right next to my limit switch on my wood furnace.

Kind of a funny story, I had to replace the limit switch about 5 years ago and didn't know if it was high voltage or low voltage. I hooked it up to high voltage and immediately fried the main board in my propane furnace because if it. anyway, long story short that transformer or relay or whatever it is buzzes really loud all the time. If I tap it, it stops.

So I can't get my propane furnace to fire, no matter what and it keeps on giving me the same error "low fire pressure switch stuck closed" that it gives me every year that they can't figure out. Just so happens that I tried again for the heck of it and i tapped the buzzing transformer and sure enough it fires up right after I do that.

It may just be a simple as switching the transformer out with a new one if they can do that, and I'm really hoping that's what it takes to get it going. This guy said that you would definitely check that out (the previous company said that wasn't the issue and would just rather blindly replace parts instead) and would be realistic with me and get me through the winter if that's what it took. I told him that I would absolutely be that I would be coming to him in the spring to do all this work one way or another simply because he was honest with me and just took the time to hear me out.

 

[Highbeam]

You thought it was a lot to have 6-7 4” splits in your old wood furnace? My nc30 (same as the englander furnace) is cranking right now on more than 8 5-7” splits. Load it full and let it crank!

I think I would like some electronics like a tundra 2 has but if not, the englander manual furnace is a good bet. If the manual allows connection to a regular Terra cotta masonry chimney then why not?

 

[maple1]

I don't think I would let my current chimney situation sway my choice a whole lot. If you try to pick something now based just on your unlined chimney, you might end up regretting that choice next year and all years to follow with a freshly lined chimney. Even if that means you end up needing to sweep more often for just this winter.

 

[j7art2]

You thought it was a lot to have 6-7 4” splits in your old wood furnace? My nc30 (same as the englander furnace) is cranking right now on more than 8 5-7” splits. Load it full and let it crank!

I think I would like some electronics like a tundra 2 has but if not, the englander manual furnace is a good bet. If the manual allows connection to a regular Terra cotta masonry chimney then why not?

Interesting. I thought the fireboxes were much smaller on those. The firebox on the US Stove is like 1/3 the size of my current one. If I could fit through the door, I could sit up fairly comfortably in it. It's enormous.

My unit doesn't have any secondary burn, just a smoke shelf. I don't mind loading up the unit at all, but getting better than 2-4 hour burn times would be nice. Lol. What I end up doing is ramping the house up to 77 or so before bed with fresh wood on it, then waking up in the morning starting a fire with it around 66.

Maybe my unit's not as inefficient as I suspected, but I assumed it was. A buddy of mine has a Yukon Eagle and heats his uninsulated farm house on twigs! Then again that thing is pretty efficient.

With my propane furnace now miraculously working again, I'm going to see if maybe the HVAC guy can just replace the transformer/relay or whatever the heck that thing is and get me through until spring.

I guess my next question would be with a masonry lined terracotta chimney, is just a stainless liner sufficient, or do I need to get an insulated stainless liner? We're talking 2/3 more for insulated, and I don't want to spend the money if it's not needed. Might not be an easy question to answer though with a bunch of variables.

 

[brenndatomu]

I guess my next question would be with a masonry lined terracotta chimney, is just a stainless liner sufficient, or do I need to get an insulated stainless liner? We're talking 2/3 more for insulated, and I don't want to spend the money if it's not needed. Might not be an easy question to answer though with a bunch of variables.

Insulation is always better, maybe even required to meet code, but good luck getting it in a 7" flue!

 

[blades]

Unless there is something physically wrong with the wood furnace, not much point in replacing at this point. 4-5 hours active heat is about normal on most unless equipped with a combustion air blower that ramps up some when coaling stage is reached. Your comment on the uss steel not having a cold air return was in correct- you need to make your own box to enclose the blowers with a filter or purchase separately from them ( by the way blowers might last one season- personal experience)
I do not know and perhaps you do not either but you should have a backflow damper between the wood stove and the gas unit in the hot air line.
Flue liner - a non-insulated likely could be slipped down the masonry unit - the issue would be the same as what you currently have in as much as creosote formation- perhaps there are other problems in that flue that have been glossed over such as cracked tiles or missing mortar in the joints - insulated would require removal of the terracotta tiles- benefits have all ready been discussed.
A barometric damper is used to control excessive draft - downfall is that it introduces ambient room air to flue- cooling things off.
Induced draft units- no experience with those-
Possible part of what you might be running into with various hvac firms -is code compliance- national code requires solid flue appliances to be serviced by their own unique flue nothing else can be on that flue, perhaps your current gas unit is vented out the side wall? if not that may be the issue. replacing gas unit with a 90 or better efficiency that can be vented out the side wall resolves that. Random thoughts.

 

[maple1]

Insulation is always better, maybe even required to meet code, but good luck getting it in a 7" flue!

I would likely knock the liner out first. Assuming the OPs liner is what I am picturing. Put an insulated s/s liner in there & its set for life.

 

[j7art2]

I've called and left voicemails on 3 separate chimney sweeps in the area asking for return calls on a chimney liner explaining the situation. With snow on the ground now I might be completely SOL until spring in which I'll just do it myself rather than pay someone.

With everything working seemingly okay now, provided it stays that way, I should be able to hold off until then.

 

[j7art2]

Interesting turn of events here the last week or two.

Totaled my truck the day after getting my official quote (go figure) however talked the wife into being on board with buying a beater vehicle and actually doing this project.

I've got pretty much permission to go with whatever I want now less say, the Laampa Kuuma (due to price) but wondering if maybe a Drolet would be better overall.

How does the Drolet compare? I remember a few years ago people having issues with the Tundra and thin fireboxes cracking or something along those lines, but I honestly haven't been on hearth in a few years.