Help Picking a Fireplace Insert

[johann]

This looks like a board full of great advice, so I made an account and I'm going to pose some questions.

Currently I have a house American four square/bungalow style. Bought it with the woman 16-18 months ago. Its got a nice huge 25-30' chimney attached to the fireplace in the Living room. This fireplace has an ash pit to the basement part of the chimney. when we moved in the ash dump was so full that the trap door in the fireplace wouldn't even open. I took 2+ garbage cans of ashes out of the house this year when i realized it was full.
Anyways once I get the chimneys repaired(they need to be recapped) I then want to get a fireplace insert for the living room. Right now its nice to have a fire to see, but the fires I have had really don't seem to put out much heat.
The house was built in the 1920's has some blown insulation in the attic floor. and then one wall in the kitchen and the ceiling in the kitchen is insulated. I did that when I remodeled the kitchen. As per another thread I'm going to insulate the basement ceiling, the sill plate and the basement walls. The basement has a boiler in it, about 2 years old as far as I can tell, and we have radiator heat.

So my questions are basically what should I be looking for to have a nice fireplace insert that may go with that style of house to put out enough heat to make the living room nice. The house is 2 stories, plus basement plus unfinished attic+dormers. its about 1500 sq feet of finished space I'm guessing.
I defiantly want to go with wood, not pellets, and I'm not sure where even to start with what brands, or kinds of fireplace inserts. I've seen secondary combustion mentioned, i'm not sure what that is.
Oh, i also plan to put a chimney liner in when I put the insert in. Chimney liners look fairly non-complex to install. Is that true? Just have to be careful on the roof right?

One other thing, I will probably install the insert myself also, since my uncle can get dealer pricing on lots of different brands of all kinds of fireplace/woodstove/inserts.

Thanks ahead of time for all the information I"m sure to get bombarded with.

 

[elkimmeg]

we need to know the size of that firebox and room layouts to determine what fits your needs and also a location to determine your climate
welcome aboard Hearth.com and we need more info

 

[johann]

firebox is 20" deep 30" high, 33" at the rear and about 41" at the front.

Living room is 17' on the wall by the fireplace, and 14' or so to the wall across from the fireplace. its a squareish room with 9' ceilings. there is a 6' arch across from the fireplace to a foyerroom and the stairs up to the second floor.
on the wall adjacent to that is another 6' wide arch to the dining room. the dining room is about the same size as the living room.
then from the dining room is an open door to the kitchne, then the kitchen leads back to the foyer.. its a race track design.


Hope that gives you more to go on.
There are radiators in each room, 2 in the living room 1 in the dining rooms, 1 in the foyer and a kickspace heater in the kitchen.

thanks agian

 

[philaphire]

T

One other thing, I will probably install the insert myself also, since my uncle can get dealer pricing on lots of different brands of all kinds of fireplace/woodstove/inserts.

What brands exactly? that's going to either keep it wide or narrow it down quick. What's your budget? Do you like the look of Plate Steel that can be spruced up with brass accents or the classic look of Cast Iron? Just so you know, I too have been wrestling over which insert while I build up my wood pile for next year. Let us know - thanks

 

[johann]

I'm looking for a classic look. I haven't yet narrowed on a brand or type. The woman was liking the jotul inserts so something similar to that I guess. Budget I'm guessing 1500-2000 installed with the cap on the chimney and a liner. I should also be paying cost not MSRP on the insert itself soo, not sure what the markup is but its something to mention. Should I put pictures up of the current room, will that help?

 

[Roospike]

I'm looking for a classic look. I haven't yet narrowed on a brand or type. The woman was liking the jotul inserts so something similar to that I guess. Budget I'm guessing 1500-2000 installed with the cap on the chimney and a liner. I should also be paying cost not MSRP on the insert itself soo, not sure what the markup is but its something to mention. Should I put pictures up of the current room, will that help?

You should be paying COST and not MSRP ?

$1500. - $2000. for installed with the cap on the chimney and a liner ? Installed meaning the stoves price + linner /cap .

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EDIT: I seen it now.
"One other thing, I will probably install the insert myself also, since my uncle can get dealer pricing on lots of different brands of all kinds of fireplace/woodstove/inserts."

What brands can your uncle get ?

 

[philaphire]

Not sure what cost is but MSRP on the Jotul Winterport small insert is about $2K complete (surround & blower) and the Kennebec medium insert is about $2300 complete. Jotul has great reviews and Kennebec owners on the forum love it. The Winterport just came out and is what I would like to get except the cost is somewhat prohibitive with adding another $1K for liner & installation. The only other iron inserts that looks as good as Jotul is Hampton made by Regency. Not sure the cost on theirs. Actually, have you looked at the Lopi declaration? That's got a neat look to it - comes in a variety of finishes but they will run minimum $2500 complete, and definitely more when you get in the finishes. Every other insert IMHO looks the same, and to the Morso fans out there, I don't think theirs looks good at all. My 2 cents..... Now if you could do a free standing stove, you'd have quite a bit more options...

 

[johann]

What brands can your uncle get ?

I'm not sure, the last time I checked he had an enormous book of stuff he could get his hands on. At that point I wasn't really sure what to look for, not that I know now, but off the top of my head he had Vermont Castings and Majestic. He basically said figure out what I want for a brand and he'll figure out what he can get. He has two companies now he's partnered with, one is a welding/gas company and the other is a propane company. It sounds like I should ask him about the Jotul and the lopis though, so far.
I did find some poor ratings on the Vermont castings, so I figured I would start inquiring here about who likes what and whats going to push out heat.

I just remember my father putting a better 'n ben's fireplace insert into our fireplace as a child and that it heat up the room too much there and then he put it into the basement as a freestanding stove. It would rock the house with heat thats for sure. I'd spend many a winter down there dying of 90-120 degree heat playing video games. It was comfortable in the rest of the house though.

Anyways, that's pretty much why I want to put an insert into this house. Now that I have my own house, it would be nice to have something in the fireplace that actually puts some heat out .

 

[johann]

So here's a picture of the fireplace that needs an insert. I've been going through the manuals on the jotul/harmon/lopi's that were previously recommended and I believe I'm presented with a problem. As you can see the hearth on this fireplace is tile, and its level with the wood floor. From brick to across the tile to wood floor is 13". I think most manuals have a min of 16" to combustibles from front of the stove, which tends to pop out from the fireplace some. That's true?
Is my quest for an insert completely screwed?

 

[Rhone]

Add in modifications to your hearth, right off you won't have 16" clearance in front of the loading door of small inserts, or the 18" that the larger ones usually require. You'll probably have to rip out some of that wood floor, that's what I had to do. Inserts are generally only slightly different from one another, no matter which you get they're almost the same package with just a different face. One that puts out 4 grams/hr vs. one that puts out 2 is irrelevant, in a year they'll both be within a split of each other. Others may take only a minute to remove the baffle to chimney sweep, others may take several minutes. Since you're doing it once a year, it really doesn't make a difference that one takes several minutes instead of just one. In the end, my guess you need one with a big firebox size, don't judge them by their max btu's. You'll be looking at it all winter, all summer, you better get the one you enjoy looking at. All other things are practically irrelevant. These things have very little moving parts so it's not like a car where you may end up with one that breaks down all the time. They all are 70% efficiency give or take, it's not like if you get one model your wood use will be 1/4 that of another model (unless we bring the cheapy deluxes into the equation like the Vogelzangs), no matter what you get your wood use will probably be the same. So, get one you like the look of above all else. I've heard some bad things about the VC winter warm large, others say they've redone them and the problem doesn't exist anymore. So, if you look at the VC winter warm large, ask more on here about it and what to look for exactly.

As for insulating, the rim joist/sill plate/band joist area is a must. Notoriously a bad area that really benefits from air sealing and insulating. When insulating your basement either insulate the walls, or the floor, but not both. Many don't understand the unique approach required to insulate basement walls. It's better to insulate the walls if you ever plan on using the space for a living area and, usually your walls have less surface area. I saw they're trying to put into code to ban putting fiberglass directly against foundation walls, it's turned into a mold/mildew haven in too many cases even the ones encapsulated and advertised for basements. The proper technique is to use Extruded Polystyrene against your foundation wall, XPS usually comes in sheets of 4x8, it's a foam board at almost all home centers. Baby blue if made by DOW, Pink if made by Owens Corning and O.C. calls it Foamular. It's not affected by water or moisture, but permeable so they still allow your walls to breathe. Pick yourself up some bundles, save the receipts for the 10% credit, adhere it to the foundation wall, caulk any gaps between any pieces, then use either furring strips or 1x4's and tapcons & a hammer drill to screw them into the foundation (by code it must be screwed into the foundation, can't just depend on adhesive). Cover that with drywall as it needs to be protected if in a living space with fire protection. You can cover it with 1x4's on edge every 16" OC and place R13 fiberglass between and then cover it with drywall. As long as you put XPS against the foundation first it's safe to put fiberglass on top of it (without paper facing). If you're on a budget, I read that 70% of the heat lost in your basement is through the top half of your wall so you can just insulate the top half. Though, generally it's not too difficult to just do the whole thing while you're there.

Good luck!

 

[carpniels]

Hi johann,

As per another thread I’m going to insulate the basement ceiling, the sill plate and the basement walls.

I would suggest NOT insulating your basement ceiling. Just sprayfoam the sill plate and top of block foundation (I did that and it was night and day). Save the money for a nice big insert and you are good to go. Kennebec has gotten great review. I personally would go for the Pacific Energy Summit Insert. PE summit has gotten great reviews from everyone.

Good luck

Carpniels

 

[johann]

Start with the walls.. Got it.
I assume if i have masonry flaking off in spots I should patch that up before applying the fiber boards. That would have been my intention anyways. I remember when my father did our basement with Styrofoam. first gluing it up and then eventually putting drywall over it. It will just be a pain in this house since the previous owner put paneling here and there. Have to tear that down etc.

I was just driving around with the woman and miraculously found a JØtul dealer. while talking to him about installation and my problem he recommended just putting a blue stone hearth piece on top of the floor/existing tile assuming that the extra height still allows for the insert to fit in the existing fireplace.

Ahh, so much to do to get ready for an insert. Oh well, its going to be one of those projects!

 

[mgambuzza]

I know exactly the problem you went through. Our 1910 house had a large fireplace, but you had to be on the hearth to enjoy any heat. When I bought firebacks, grills, etc, none were any more efficient. I started looking at inserts, and the typical insert received a resounding "NO" especially when it came to looks.

I then found the VC Winter Warm Large. It had an unusual look, and I rolled the dice thinking she'd grow on it. She did! I have been very satisfied with this unit, and many comment on the unusual style of the insert - many think it is a gas stove when burning and are amazed at the heat output! I included a link to pictures of this unit in case you havent seen one already.

https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/3875/

 

[johann]

That winterwarm does look nice, and you look like a similar hearth to what i had. I wasn't thinking of VC just because of a warning thread I heard on the winterwarms on another board, I take it they fixed the issues with them? Loud blower, not enough heat output etc?

 

[Rhone]

The usual problems with the Winter Warm Large is the way they did the door and how it seals. Most companies have where the door closes as one solid flat piece that the gasket seals against, the Winter Warm Large as I understand is 4 seperate pieces that have to be aligned perfectly with each other which is nearly impossible to achieve for a tight fit. Elk, who is probably the biggest Vermont Castings fan on here doesn't usually recommend them and, I know that's gotta be tough for him he loves VC. Another poster mentioned that they may have redone the door & gasket thing so it's no longer 4 seperate pieces or not an issue anymore. Just make sure. Mo Heat, a moderator on here had to have his first Winter Warm Large replaced because he could simply not get a seal on the door the way it's designed, and could not get control of his fires. As I understand, he spent lots of hours with the second one trying to make it work as well and progress was made, and on his second one last I saw he doesn't recommend them either.

I think the Jotuls are really sharp looking as well, I love their Gothic look. Mike Wilson, a poster that's on vacation or away on business has one.

 

[jldunn]

I wouldn't bother ripping up flooring unless you want to make something pretty. You can get a UL approved black hearth extender board for about $50 and just lay it on top of the hardwood. Looks good by me and the floor underneath isn't any warmer than the rest of the room. Before I put one down the hardwood next to the hearth got too hot to touch for very long.

 

[Rhone]

The hearth extension or pad is an option, some locals require they be fastened to the floor. So many people purchase them, lay it down for the inspector, then find themselve tripping on them and worried one day they're going to trip and do a face plant on their hot insert or lose a couple teeth on it, or they don't like the way they look they remove them and stick them in the attic and then no longer have clearance. My brother did that with his. So many people remove them after the inspector leaves that some locals require they be permenantly attached to the floor. Before the inspector comes, verify that you don't have to.

When I had my chimney inspected by a Mason, he told me before it's installed if I want to change the tiles of the hearth out, do it now. I hadn't really thought much about it, but the tiles we had didn't go with our country theme whatsoever. I found that advice wonderful, it's a great opportunity for you to extend the hearth and change it out for one that suits you (if that doesn't). I did that with mine, took out some of the wood floor and extended the hearth into it. I didn't want to risk tripping on a pad as it's right where everyone going in and out of the front door walks over so, mine is nice and flush with the wood floor like yours currently is. In a low traffic zone a pad or extension will probably be fine.

 

[jjbaer]

That winterwarm does look nice, and you look like a similar hearth to what i had. I wasn't thinking of VC just because of a warning thread I heard on the winterwarms on another board, I take it they fixed the issues with them? Loud blower, not enough heat output etc?

I looked at the Winter Warm Large at a dealers and the fans on it are whisper quiet...had to put my ear down to the vent to hear the blower..... Also, don't know about the glass size on the Jotul or Hampton, but the WWL has about 250 sq inches of glass, which is one of the largest ones on the market.

I was also looking at the Hampton wood burning insert in black enamel and called a dealer earlier this morning. When they tell me the price I'll let you know. The price I got for the Winter Warm Large in basic black was $2194 for the insert and surround and $2589 in black enamel.

 

[elkimmeg]

I may have unfairly diss the winter warm. I formed my oppinion from Mo heats experiences. There are many out there functioning as advertised.

No matter what insert you purchase, make damn sure you select the best dealer. Part of mo heat problem should been solved by the dealer.
IF he had a good dealer, we would have not heard the rest of his ordeal.. He will also admit being a newbi , he was still learning the wood burning experience
Chalk some it up inexperience.

Seaken has sold many winter warms and continues selling them he is experienced at solving the front door gasket issues should they arise.
If they arise many times a grinder smooths off the the problem area, touch paint is done, and that't it. he knows excatly what is involved and can deal with

99% of the time that's the fix. A good dealer installer would make the adjustments at the time of the install. It also could be tightening the door latch.
every installer on any stove should check the unit over before leaving including the door latch. what I'm saying it may not be the stove its self but installations that should have confirmed the latch and gasket fit. That goes for any stove installation from any manufacturer and dealer

 

[mgambuzza]

I agree with elk - make sure you have a GOOD dealer install this item. As the name implies - this is a Large unit - approx 500 pounds. It took three large groaning adults to carry it in and install it. I had some problems with smoke, but after the installer made two trips, found that the Flex connector skewed. Once straightened, this has worked like a champ. Tonight it is zero degrees in Syracuse, and the room it is in is 30 x 15 feet with 6 windows and 2 doors - all single pane glass - heat sinking to the outdoors. The living room was 53 degrees at 7:30 this evening before the fire. It is now 70 Degrees and we're quite comfortable.

Other than the initial smoke problems with the Flex pipe, it has given us over 6 years of reliable service.

 

[johann]

Good advice. It sounds like I am going to have to look for something that is easy to install though. I don' think a dealer is going to want to install something I get somewhere else; getting something at dealer price is just too good of a deal. I hope. My only other experience with deals like that is on bikes and getting cost on bicycles is usually 50% off msrp.

The winterwarm does have a great look to it!

 

[jjbaer]

I don' think a dealer is going to want to install something I get somewhere else; getting something at dealer price is just too good of a deal.

The winterwarm does have a great look to it!

You'd be surprised......most shops that I talk to DO NOT have employees who install stoves but rather "freelancers" whose name they give you and you (the customer) contracts with them to have the stove installed. This means the installer could probably care less where you bought it or what brand it is because they install stoves as independent contractors.....

 

[elkimmeg]

Cast good point. I should have included that the installation is only as good as the installer and that getting a good installer is very important. and it could be an independent.

The problem asises dealing with warranty issues, Again the dealer may subcontract to independent contractors. It is possible to purchase a stove and find a good installer and make out ok
but most warranty work is authorized from dealers. Buying elsewhere, warranty coverage needs to be addressed before the purchase.

For some here mechanically inclinde and willing to get dirt on your hands, we assume the risk.