help with a stove choice - Oslo, Phoenix, soapstone, cast iron...

[yellowstonebanks]

Hello, I'm new to posting here but have enjoyed reading a lot of threads... I'm stuck on deciding on a new stove and could use some feedback from others with stoves similar to the ones I'm looking at.

I'm looking at putting a good sized stove backed partly into my living room fireplace hearth (3' x3' opening, 12"-18" deep) to provide heat for a relatively new (10 year-old) two story cape style house a little over 2000 sf total located in northern New England. The living room is connected to a two story entrance hall so heat will be flowing easily upstairs....

I've looked at a lot of possibilities and have pretty much narrowed it down to a Hearthstone Phoenix or Jotul Oslo. Both seem to have good reputations and be well-liked on this website

I have a few questions I'd be interested in feedback on:

I've talked to dealers (and read posts here) about how fast the Phoenix (part soapstone) will get going and heat up compared to the cast iron Oslo and have heard divergent opinions ranging from hardly any difference in practice to the soapstone taking much longer to get going. I'd be interested in hearing from people who have experince with both kinds of stoves as to what they have actually experienced. I'm wonding if maybe the differences people report have more to do with with firestarting stylet than with the stove or if maybe the presence of some cast iron in Phoenix does actually speed things up...

I've had a lot of wood buring experince ranging from 70's era steel box airtight, to Dutchwest cast iron catalytic to most recently a lopi steel insert with fan (too noisy to get the heat out). I am wondering if others who have switched from steel or cast iron to soapstone miss the feeling of high radiant heat from the stove or if they prefer what I hear to be the more gentle heat from soapstone.

After my experience with the insert I'm very concerned about getting the heat out of the fireplace area and into the room (there is a ceiling fan) and am thinking of putting a sheet metal liner inside the fireplace to minimize the loss into the bricks and reflect more of the heat out into the room. Has anyone else tried something like that? When I had the insert (in another house) everyone told me I would get the heat back from the centrally located chimney but as far as I could tell that didn't seem to be the case. I have also thought about lining the fireplace with high temp insulating board but that seems more complicated, expensive and possibly ugly.

thanks for any thoughts on the above
Yellowstonebanks

 

[begreen]

Sounds like a pretty good start. How will the stove be burning, all day & all night or mostly evenings and weekends? If 24/7 I would consider the soapstone, but possibly going up to the Mansfield, though I like the look of the Phoenix more. If the flue is only 10 years old, how is it constructed and what are the interior dimensions? Is a liner required? Even so, I might skip insulating the liner. Others are sure to chime in soon.

 

[Harley]

Hi, Yellowstone, and welcome.

I had a VC resolute ('79 vintage) in my house for about 11 years, and replaced it with a VC Vigilant, (approx. same year). This year I extended the hearth and replaced the Vigilant with a Hearthstone Heritage. To answer your question, there is a difference in the heat-up time of the stove, and in my experience it is significant. I would not really consider a soapstone stove it you are not going to burn 24/7 for the most part. I think the warm up time would take away a lot of the benefits. By the same token, it takes a lot longer for the stove to cool down, so it really does radiate the heat long after the fire has died down. I would think the Phoenix with its cast iron front may be a little quicker..... but I'm only guessing not by a lot (only saying this because the Heritage has a fairly large front door, and not a heck of a lot of soapstone in the front anyway)

I never really had a problem with the cast iron stoves cooking me out of the room, due to a pretty open floor plan, but the "gentle" heat from the soapstone stove is very nice... it really is different from a cast iron stove, so I don't think I'm "missing" anything from the old stoves. As to your last question about the sheet metal liner in the fireplace.... I did something similar (if I'm understanding what you said correctly, but not for the same reason. I believe I can feel a difference in that some of the heat is radiated back into the room quicker with that area blocked off...... see the following thread for the picture:

https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/5580/

 

[yellowstonebanks]

The flue is pretty large, 12x12 so I'm getting it lined. The local installers are all suggesting it be insulated, to insure good draft I guess. The damper plate opening is long and narrow 4"-5" so the liner will ovalize going through it. One guy suggested a 7" liner but others are saying that would make it worse and are suggesting 6".

We don't mind running the oil heat occasionally and to keep the efficiency up and particulate down I generally haven't loaded up my stoves and closed the dampers down for lengthy burns, instead if we are around I just add wood as needed to keep a goodly fire going. As a result the fires do tend to go out overnight or other times so it isn't 24/7 burning. Of course with a different stove we could consider changing burning habits.

The metal liner I'm imagining would be inside the fireplace up against the brick back & side walls and top (not like a surround on an insert) since I want to preserve as much of my living room as I can by backing the stove partly into the fireplace but still get as much heat out as I can with out a fan.

 

[ChrisN]

Hi Yellowstone. I have an Oslo, and it works well for me. The only caution I have is that if you are going to partially back it into an existing fireplace hearth you really need to have enough room to use the side door on the stove for loading. The stove is designed such that lots of ash builds up against the front door and it spills out everytime you open the door. I almost exclusively use the side door for loading.

Good luck and happy hunting.

Chris

 

[yellowstonebanks]

Thanks for the feedback Chris,
I was a little concerned about that, the guy at the stove shop also mentioned that with the big front door the Oslo was a little prone to smoke coming out when you loaded from the front, he thought the Phoenix with a slightly smaller front door might be a little better for front loading. I guess I'll have to decide how important it is to push the stove all way the back into the fireplace...

 

[Harley]

Is the fireplace on an outside wall, or is it central in the house? If it is on an outside wall, I would think your idea of the "liner" on the inside of the fireplace is probably a pretty good idea. If the fireplace is more central, I dont think it would be as needed, since the heat isn't lost to the outside, but rather stored in the mass of the fireplace and released slowly into the living space.

I think having the stove out as far as possible (without taking up living space) would also help get more heat out of the stove. Neither of these stoves seem to have an optional fan kit, but I would think if you wanted, you could but something in the fireplace area behind the stove to help circulate heat.

 

[elkimmeg]

First of all another post Woodstock is having a terrific sale.
I think it is safe to say Woodstock has the best customer satisfaction rating in the industry and they are top quality stoves.
But I not trying to influence your stove selection I want to address some statement you made or dealers made to you,

I understand you have a centrally interior fireplace, but never benefited from the heat it should have absorbed Why? Lets address the venting situation. Too much heat was lost by the stove, trying to establish a draft, in a 12/12 flue. Who ever installed those stoves without a liner, even 10 years back, did not have a clue about cross-sectional codes. Even then. a full liner was required
The installations were doomed to under perform from the start

In order for a cat combustor stove to function properly, it too needs a draft cross-sectional area it can support. No 6” flue stove is designed to work in a 12/12 clay flue. Especially a draft sensitive Cat Combustor stove. Again that flue extracted too much stove heat to establish any kind if draft.

Enter the recent stove the Lopi. It has the cross-sectional burden to over come. Plus it has a convection chamber and blower. Is it any wonder little radiation was absorbed by the bricks and concrete mass? All the heat is channeled and removed by the convection,

You have the ideal setup to radiate heat to a solid mass and enjoy hours of radiation long after the stove has died down. But you have to take advantage of it.. All past stove performances are invalid because they were never properly installed

Finally years of under performance you want a larger stove but this time you are going to install it with a full liner well finally, any new stove has a chance to deliver t what it supposed to do

Let me address your dealers liner recommendations. One tells you 6” is required another suggest 7” which one is correct. Most will
Agree with the 6” installer. And 6” liner will draft fine. So the 7’ recommendation must be wrong? Technically he is correct. Flexible liner has corrugations, which produces friction and reduces the effective draft 20 to 25% I know everybody uses them and thinks it is right. But even the manufacture and code addresses the corrugation friction issue. Ideally all liners should be 6.5” but impossible to install in an 8/12 clay flue. You have the room to go either way.

Since your home is only 10 years old your flue and chimney should be NFPA 211 compliant a liner does not need insulation to achieve UL 1777 listing It only has to comply with UL103 HT..

Insulation is not required by code and you have an interior chimney location, What is wrong with the idea of no insulation and letting residual heat, heating up the masonry mass. Another point to consider is, dead air space has insulating value of .9 per inch.

If one does a good job sealing the top and sealing the damper block off area, is that not creating a dead air space? The damper block off seal is important. I suggest you have ceramic kao wool insulation above the block off plate so that heat goes forward..
Now with a liner and a good block off seal. Heating the concrete mass is beneficial one can take advantage of it storage abilities. A soapstone stove might not be your best choice it would buffer the radiation to your natural storage mass I would purchase a radiant stove. One that in the future can have an optional blower attached. I would try to take advantage of your storage mass and start out without the blower working or not attached. This takes more 24/7 burning to achieve to build up the heat in the concrete. I know how this works I have been doing this for over 30 years I built my home around a center fireplace. I know what I wanted to accomplish and it has delivered.

This is food for thought to help you make a educated decision

BTW
I would include a clean out tee behind that stove if room allows.


Welcome to the Hearth

 

[yellowstonebanks]

the chimney is not on an outside wall, on the other side there is a closet in a bedroom we sometimes close off and upstairs it goes by a bedroom and bathroom. However as I mentioned I am not a big believer in the benefits of heating up the brickwork in the chimney, seems the sheet rock over it might warm up some but mostly it seems more like lost heat to me... I don't know exactly what the usual construction is like but if there are openings around the chimney that connect up to the attic then most of that heat is going to go out the roof...

I think you are probably right about pulling the stove a little farther out.
Also I am planning to get the rear heat shields to help things along.

 

[yellowstonebanks]

Elk,

Sorry I may not have made it clear in my first post but we are talking about a couple different houses. The cat stove and lopi were in my previous house. A flex liner was installed in the chimney and the cat stove worked great aside from some occasional puffing. I only got rid of it because in that case the fireplace was low and the stove was located out on a hearth pad and ate up too much of the living room. The lopi seemed to work fine except to get the benefit of the heat we had to run the fan at a pretty high speed and the noise wasn't that great. There may also have been some restricitions in the chimney liner since the flue was relatively small had a bend and they had a tough time threading the liner down into the fireplace. I'm sure the chimney mass must have heated up some but I didn't feel like I got much benefit from it.

I just moved to a new to me (10 year old) house and am missing the wood stove, thus the wood stove search process...

This newer house has a good quality 12x12 flue and you are probably right that an uninsulated liner could be used. I think the installers are worried about not getting enough draft without the insulation but I have wondered whether uninsulated would be ok or even better so I appreciate your comments...

 

[babalu87]

Yellowstone, we have an 1800 sq foot Cape and the Morso 3610 is a bit much for the house.
It would heat your 2000 sq ft with no issue.

http://www.morsoe.com/us/Products/Stoves/3610/Model_3610/Morsø+3610.htm

8-10 hour burns with Oak too.

 

[DriftWood]

On stove sizing BTU output. Max BTU output listed on stoves seems is fudged hi on most stoves. Total BTU output takes no measure for the 4 feet of vent pipe hooked up for the test. Some posts here say it is 10,000-15,000 BTU of total value. You will not have the 4 foot pipe in your heating area to get that rated heat. It will not be lost in your ideal interior setup though, a real plus in your case.

I have used a 1980s steel wood stove and a 2004 soapstone heats heat they both work fine 24/7. New stoves are cleaner and use less wood. The steel stoves gets a nod for fast heat at startup, soapstone evens out heat output cooler start longer coast when empty and do not cook you out of the room.

The woodstock stoves are a good deal now $600.00 off big stoves Save 10% On Pipe and Accessories. They are cat stoves.
http://www.woodstove.com/pages/wood_stoves.html

This is my set up a Hearthstone heritage.

HearthStone Heritage break in fire!!
https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/3106/

 

[yellowstonebanks]

that is a beautiful setup and tile job... my wife is wondering if you have any "before" pictures?

anyone else have some comments on insulated versus un-insulated chimney liners inside a 10-year old roughly 25' tall inside-located brick chimney with a 12"x12" flue?

Also I'd be interested to hear from anyone who is heating with a Hearthstone Phoenix how they like it... any problems with the front loading, how fast it starts up....anything else + or -

thanks,
Yellowstonebanks

 

[begreen]

Now that you've given the height of the stack I can say for certain that I wouldn't insulate it, but instead seal it off top and bottom as Elk described. You won't have a draft issue, unless the draft is too strong.

I have to disagree about the potential heat given off by the brick mass of the fireplace and brick chimney system. Masonry heat is a good thing to leverage as much as possible. It can be substantial and one is missing out on a nice benefit if it isn't capitalized on. We exposed our offset stack for a section and hours after the stove was out, one could feel the heat radiating from the bricks back into the house. It's a gentle heat, but far better than sending it all up the stack. My brother-in-law discovered the same thing when he completed his greenhouse attached to the house. The dining room wall housed a wood fired baking oven and chimney system that was exposed on the exterior. After he installed the greenhouse that enclosed the chimney, he had plans for a big space heater in it. But wehn they fired up the baking oven, the greenhouse would be up to 80 degrees, fan blowing into the livingroom to dump out excess heat and it stayed warm throughout the night.

 

[yellowstonebanks]

If non-inuslated is better and cheaper it seems like the way to go...

I agree and can see that when you have an exposed brick chimney going up through the house you get a good benfit from the heated masonry (and a nice look).

But in the more usual case where the chimney is hidden behind sheetrock and probably an air space that may or may not be open to the attic I'm not so sure.

So given that should I be removing the sheetrock wall around the chimney? Unfortunately I'm pretty sure I'll find cinderblock not brick since although there is brick on the roof there is cinderblock down in the basement. Anybody out there who has exposed a cinderblock chimney and found a way to improve the looks...?

 

[begreen]

Our chmney was brick. The staircase was added years later and the wall encased the chimney, It had a rock-hard plastered surface and was a nice job, blended right into the smooth drywall. If the stud cavity is continuous, you could put a grille at the base and upper section of the cavity.

 

[colsmith]

Hello, we have a Hearthstone Phoenix. We like it just fine, we've had if for a year. Our house is about 2000 sq ft and except in this frigid phase of the year, it heats the house fine. Right now we have the furnace running a little, as the temp is around zero outside most of the time lately. However, our setup isn't very much like yours would be. And my only previous experience with a woodburner was a cast iron stove able to be used for cooking I think, in the basement of my childhood home. So the front door loading seems fine to me because I don't know any different! Remember that a Phoenix is considered a hybrid, half soapstone (top and sides) and the rest cast iron, although with lots of firebrick all over, too. We thought it was made better than the Heritage, which we had been thinking of, too.

I love the soapstone thing, and when it is cold we burn all the time, so startup time rarely matters to us. Plus when the fire goes down you still have heat coming out. Given that you have a fireplace, though, perhaps you don't need soapstone, since I would think your fireplace would hold the heat in. Thus you could go with a cheaper plain cast iron stove, and save some $$. You can see our stove and setup under the Pretty Pictures forum, title something like Hearth and Hearthstone Phoenix stove. Feel free to send me email if you want.