Help with new Quadrafire 4300 installation!!! (Pics attached)

[kenberlew]

I wanted my first posting on here to be of the wood I split or the hearth and new stove we installed......unfortunately I have a problem. Today was the day I have been waiting for for many months. My new Quadrafire 4300 with brushed nickel handles and door pins was delivered and I was so happy. After it was unloaded and placed onto the hearth that my wife and I built, the installer said something that really, really ruined my day.....I can't install this stove, it wouldn't be safe. Why this came as such a shock is that about 2 months prior when I was planning ahead for this day, I had a very reliable mason in the area come, inspect the terra cotta flues in the chimney, and install a terra cotta wall thimble. He assured me that I wouldn't have any problems and I believed him since he was very highly recommended. The installer today said that there was plywood touching the surface of the exterior of the chimney (on the inside of the house) and that was dangerous. The installers left without hooking up the stove. Later in the day the company owner came over to look at the job. He did not want to do anything to fix the existing brick chimney. He even made mentioned that the chimney was 2 feet too short, instead he suggested that I run a pipe straight up through the roof.......a look from the outside of the house that I really dislike. I am awaiting a price on the job but don't expect it to be cheap. In the meantime I had an idea that I want feedback on. Would I be able to run black stove pipe from the top of the stove to the terra cotta wall thimble, then meet it with stainless steel flex liner at the thimble and run it to the top of the flue, then extend the flue the additional 2 feet or so if needed? I am really hoping that the existing chimney can be used but of course want things to be safe and not hurt the stove's performance. Any information would greatly be appreciated.

 

[DAKSY]

I wanted my first posting on here to be of the wood I split or the hearth and new stove we installed......unfortunately I have a problem. Today was the day I have been waiting for for many months. My new Quadrafire 4300 with brushed nickel handles and door pins was delivered and I was so happy. After it was unloaded and placed onto the hearth that my wife and I built, the installer said something that really, really ruined my day.....I can't install this stove, it wouldn't be safe. Why this came as such a shock is that about 2 months prior when I was planning ahead for this day, I had a very reliable mason in the area come, inspect the terra cotta flues in the chimney, and install a terra cotta wall thimble. He assured me that I wouldn't have any problems and I believed him since he was very highly recommended. The installer today said that there was plywood touching the surface of the exterior of the chimney (on the inside of the house) and that was dangerous. The installers left without hooking up the stove. Later in the day the company owner came over to look at the job. He did not want to do anything to fix the existing brick chimney. He even made mentioned that the chimney was 2 feet too short, instead he suggested that I run a pipe straight up through the roof.......a look from the outside of the house that I really dislike. I am awaiting a price on the job but don't expect it to be cheap. In the meantime I had an idea that I want feedback on. Would I be able to run black stove pipe from the top of the stove to the terra cotta wall thimble, then meet it with stainless steel flex liner at the thimble and run it to the top of the flue, then extend the flue the additional 2 feet or so if needed? I am really hoping that the existing chimney can be used but of course want things to be safe and not hurt the stove's performance. Any information would greatly be appreciated.

I guess the FIRST thing I'd do is contact that "reliable" mason & get HIS assessment of what the installers told you.
If there's a combustible against the chimney, he should have made a note of that when he did your work.
If it IS in violation, ask HIS opinion of the possible remedies.
One may be to use Thermix as an insulating barrier between the liner & the terra cotta flue, but I'm not sure how you'd
be able to tell whether or not you were preventing the liner from contacting the flue walls on the side in question.
As far as extending the flue, there are a couple of ways to achieve this.
One would be to have the mason build everything to the height specified by the stove installation manual...
Another would be to mount an anchor plate to the existing top - attached to the liner - & add the specified length
of compatible Class A chimney to the plate.
However, this may also give you a "look that you really dislike."

 

[kenberlew]

Thanks for your reply. I did call the mason this afternoon and left a message.......I really can't wait to talk to him. From what you wrote I have a question, are you saying that there would be a problem with the stainless steel liner touching the inside of the flue?

 

[DAKSY]

Thanks for your reply. I did call the mason this afternoon and left a message.......I really can't wait to talk to him. From what you wrote I have a question, are you saying that there would be a problem with the stainless steel liner touching the inside of the flue?

Yep. If the flue tiles are against combustibles, the heat from the liner will cause a heat transfer thru the terra cotta to those combustibles...
Somehow, you hafta make sure the Thermix is between the liner & the flue tile...

 

[rustynut]

get it right
dont get discouraged
keep pushing
got a friend with a 4300
you'll love it
rn

 

[ansehnlich1]

I can't really determine what exactly you are talking about, pics would help. I do know that a "wall pass through" to an exterior chimney is supposed to have 2 feet of masonry surrounding the thimble, meaning it would be a 6 inch thimble passing directly through the center of a 30 inch square brick wall and into the exterior chimney....without any combustible between the two.

I highly recommend you re-do the masonry work if it does not meet this standard.

An alternative would be to install an approved wall pass through thimble that would eliminate the need for the masonry described above....

(broken link removed)

I would NOT do a thing until the situation is corrected, we ARE dealing with fire here ya know

 

[begreen]

Agreed, photos of the problem area(s) would help. This sounds correctable, but it's hard to advise from a distance without having the problems and options visualized.

 

[kenberlew]

Here are a couple pics of my chimney and my problem. Upon the masons advise to keep the thimble out of the way, make a nicer look, and being that I have a high cathedral ceiling, the terra cotta thimble was placed above the cultured stone that I installed (the mason did his work before I installed the stone btw). If you look at the wall thimble pic, the wall is a wood paneling. Inside of that is where the plywood is right against the brick of the chimney.

 

[kenberlew]

I clicked on the wrong button...........here's the rest.

 

[kenberlew]

Another thimble pic........

 

[kenberlew]

And the stove/stone pic.

 

[savageactor7]

And they think that looks better than a thimble through the stone? That's why you hired masons because they work with stones. What should have been an easy take now turns into a pilgrimage ...and you did such a nice job with the hearth area.

 

[kenberlew]

The unsightly look was suppose to be covered with black stove pipe and a black trim piece. My concern now is what I have to do to get this running SAFE. Your thoughts?

 

[savageactor7]

ken you need the advice of a code expert...and that ain't me.

But if it were me I'd get an experienced mason and tell 'em I want that unsightly thimble removed and plugged. Then install a thimble going threw the stone no higher than necessary 34-36 inches above the stove...that will be much easier for you to remove and clean latter on. I know you didn't want to hear that so hang on and see what others say.

You can always cover up that unsightly hole with an engraved sheet of copper either rectangular or round.

When wood is constantly expose to heat after awhile, maybe a long while, it will catch fire at a vastly reduced kindling temp...that's why the stove guys balked. They did the right thing.

 

[kenberlew]

Thanks Savage, you're the second person who mentioned seeing the code enforcement officer. I plan on going to see him first thing Monday morning. If I were to move the thimble as you mentioned, are you thinking the reline would be needed?

 

[Sleepy]

I am a heating contractor in NW Pa. and know a couple of good chimney contractors that I would trust to inspect a chimney for safety.

Maybe you could call one in your area for a third opinion, and I think you better get a third opinion from someone knowledgeable on the subject.

I don't work with chimneys for wood burners, but yours does not look safe to me.

I know of a house that burnt because the clay thimble passed too close to wood. Google "pyrolysis".

 

[Sleepy]

As I look at the thimble pic again, I don't think you will have enough clearance over top of your flue connector either.

 

[savageactor7]

are you thinking the reline would be needed

Not quite sure what you mean by that but figure you mean the inner chimney flue tile lining on the existing thimble hole. hummm well that could be a code issue which I'm sure an 'experienced' mason could accomplish.

But in the history of chimneys flue tile linings are a recent development. The house we occupy had an unlined civil war era chimney that we used for years...it was bricks only.

When a chimney cleaner pointed out a deficiency we had an experienced mason replace it...and he use a long rectangular flue tile as the inner liner, surrounded by a squared off concrete block, surrounded by brick.

...just say'em this guy was old school and refused to put a cap on it.

 

[jtp10181]

First of all, look at this: https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/articles/passing_a_chimney

Then read this: http://www.aer-online.com/aerpage.phtml?page=ar-vent1

The second article is talking about why to insulate a liner, but in that aspect it talks about why so many masonry chimneys are not safe (which is why one would need to insulate a liner)

So... This masonry work was done recently? I would call the mason and ask why he did work that violates building code... well before that, was it inspected at all? If not maybe you should call the local inspector and ask his advice, maybe you can still get a permit, have the inspector fail it, and then make the mason come back and fix it right (which I would not expect to pay for).

Besides all that, you could also just drop an insulated liner down it with an approved UL listed wall pass through and call it good...

That thimble picture is really scary, is the mortar I see on the outside of the thimble mortaring it to plywood? I can't even comprehend how any skilled mason would think that is ok.

I am fairly well versed in these codes because I had to deal with this once earlier this year, if needed you could probably find your local codes online and print them out. In Wisconsin they follow the NFPA 211 pretty well for the clearances stuff, but a lot is re-written in their code so its free to download and print out.

 

[kenberlew]

Thank you very much jtp10181, great information.......it looks like I might not be able to use this chimney after all being that the wood beams/supports are too close. Correct me if I'm wrong, but from what has been said and after seeing the pic, I might be better off going through the ceiling?

 

[kenberlew]

Could anybody tell me their thoughts on Duraliner wall pass throughs and would this be an option for my existing issue?

 

[jtp10181]

If just the crook / thimble pass through is bad, you could use could the duraliner wall pass through to make it safe after removing the existing clay tile. If the entire masonry structure was done incorrectly (plywood or beams right up against the masonry from the sounds of it), then the only way to make it safe would be a full insulated liner.

 

[kenberlew]

Thank you jtp10181.......when you say removing the clay tile do you mean just the wall pass or all of the existing chimney flue tiles? BTW, the mason who did the work finially returned my call........I also emailed him a few of the links from here and he's coming tomorrow to see how we can fix this problem he created.......should be interesting.

 

[jefferson1]

keep us updated, I'd like to know how it turns out.

 

[kenberlew]

I definately will........after alot of reseach and thought I'm leaning tword running a stainless chimney up through the roof and be done with it. If I do correct the wall pass issue somehow I still am left with a chimney that should be relined and is too short.