Help with piping/pump sizes

[Piker]

I want to install 1000 gallons of pressurized storage and be able to put close to all of the 200,000 Btu/hr rating of the Econoburn into those tanks so the boiler doesn't have to idle. Tanks will be about 50' of piping away from the boiler. What size pipe... what size pump... got any online calulators for this kind of stuff?

Thanks

 

[Blevesque]

200,000 btu's @ 40 deg delta T you are looking at 10 Gpms and go with 1 1/2" Black pipe. Pump size will be based on head pressure. If little to no head then a 007 Taco will do if you 10' or more go with 0010 Taco.

 

[Piker]

Head pressure... I know what it is... I just don't know how to calculate it.

Do you prefer black pipe to copper for any other reason than price?

Can i use galvanized steel pipe?

Thanks

 

[Blevesque]

Head pressure... I know what it is... I just don't know how to calculate it.

I am going to assume head pressure is going to be minimal here. I assume your tank and boiler are most likely in the same room. Pressure drop through the tank is very small and friction loss through 50 ft of pipe and a few elbows is also minimal.

Do you prefer black pipe to copper for any other reason than price?

I went with black at my house 1) because I have free use of pipe threaders 2) Black is quite a bit cheaper then copper 3) It's going to be insulated anyway.

Can i use galvanized steel pipe?

Why? it's more expensive then Black

Side note did you look at that tekmar 156 difference control? I think it would work nice for you.

Thanks

 

[jebatty]

Do not use galvanized. Search the forum for the reasons why.

 

[Couderay80]

Here is some info for ya to digest and hopefully gives you the answer your looking for. Copy it and keep it in your files.

 

[Piker]

BRL,

I looked at the tekmar, and I think that is what I am going to go with... even though I don't understand 100% how it works with the system. I will use it along with the first drawing in the other thread of the "hybrid" primary-secondary system.

The reason I asked about using galvanized pipe is because I found 200' of 1.5" galvanized pipe for $200. If there will be problems with corrosion though... I will probably pass...


Thanks for the sheet "J"... that is very helpful.

 

[Piker]

A fella told me that to get the same flow as 1 1/2" black iron I would have to use 2" copper? Is that true? and why? This same guy told me that a taco 007 only pumps about 3 gpm... but according to the charts on the taco website, they will pump up to 20gpm depending on how high you have to take the water (head pressure?)

I like the idea of saving the money by using black iron... but the ease of the copper is quite appealing as well... but if I would have to use 2" copper as opposed to 1 1/2" black pipe, the price difference would be worth the extra effort to install the iron.

what do you guys think?

 

[Blevesque]

That is untrue. At 10 gpm 1 1/2" Black has a friction loss of .84, and 1 1/2" copper has a friction loss of 1.15. 4.0 and under is the design norm. So 1 1/2" copper is pefectlly acceptable. Taco claims 20GPM at 11'.

 

[Piker]

BRL

I would love to know what your source is for all this technical information. I could really use it.

 

[Blevesque]

Sorry I forgot to tell you yesterday. http://www.bellgossett.com/BG-Software.asp Download the system sizer. I use the old round wheel version of this.

 

[Piker]

Has anyone used the Hydronic Design Studio By John Siegenthaler, Appropriate Designs? Just wondering how this type of software works for the average joe who knows a little about hydronic heat. It's quite a bit of money for a one-time use, but it might be worth it in the end if it keeps me from screwing up and using the wrong size pipe or something.

I think I want to use 1 1/2" copper for my primary loop and for the storage loop... as far as I have seen, that should allow me to get at least 150,000 Btu's into the tanks and I wouldn't have to use a pump bigger than an 007. I was thinking though, that the pump on the primary loop should be bigger than the pump on the storage loop... the zones might not get enough flow when the storage loop is running? ugh... this is confusing. I have some more thinking to do though... the way my loops are set up, I want to be able to charge the tanks AND heat the house as long as the temp drop of the water from the boiler to a point past all the zones isn't more than a certain amount. I don't know what that certain amount should be. I suppose it depends on heat load and that ability of the radiant system to output the required amount of heat. A control like the tekmar should allow the user to fine tune this after some practical experience with the system. This is where I think the software would really come in handy... but I am skeptical that it actually works.

Do you guys have preferences on taco vs grund-fos pumps? Most of the heating guys around here use grund-fos. They are a little more money, but if their quality is higher it might be worth it?

 

[Blevesque]

Piker the tekmar 157 is the same as the 156 but it is for a variable speed pump. I'd have to look at the scematics but I think the hotter the source water the faster the pump will ramp up. So as your zones close water heats up and the tank pump speeds up. The 157 is about a 100 bucks more.

 

[Piker]

Oooohhhh... that sounds sweet. I will look into that a little deeper. What variable pump would you recommend?

 

[Blevesque]

I have the Taco 007 IFC 3 speed they are only 20-30 bucks more then a regular 007.

 

[Piker]

I think I am confused. I didn't realize the tekmar 157 was for measuring the boiler and the storage... and ramps up the variable pump as the difference between the two gets greater. That's not really how I envision this system working. I would think that i would want to measure the temperature drop from before my heating zones to after my heating zones... if that temp drop is more than a certain amount, then the variable pump would actually slow down, providing more Btu's for the heating zones. Once the heating zones are "caught up" and the temperature differential is below that "certain amount" the variale pump would then ramp up and start storing more Btu's in the tanks... keeping the boiler running at maximum until the tanks are completely charged. Make any sense? Or am I just having a pipe dream. Pun intended.

Is there a control out there that will do that?

 

[Piker]

I am an idiot...

All if have to do is check that the temp immediately after the zones is higher than the temp of the storage... if it is then run the storage... the greater the differential... the faster the charge pump works...

awesome.

I think.

 

[Blevesque]

Piker what is the control sequence for the econoburn. I've started drawing up a diagram showing how I was invisioning your install. Bit I'd like to know how they wood boiler is controlled. The tekmars source sensor would be mounted after your zones, so as zones close water temp goes up to say 180 and your tank temp is 140, pump ramps up and dumps into tank. So say an hour later 2 zone call for heat, now your water temp is 165 and your tank temp rose 20 degrees in that hour of charging so it's at 160, your delta T is set for 10 dergees, so the tank pump will remain off until zones shut off and the water temperture rises above your delta T. Does that make sense?

 

[Blevesque]

Sorry I'm to slow..

 

[Blevesque]

Here is the drawing.

Depending on how the Econoburn controls P-1 you can have it so if P-1 is on Z-1 is closed and Z-2 is open (tank can be charged) fire goes out P-1 turns off, Z-1 opens and Z-2 closes, zone pumps pull from tank. It still needs work but is an idea.

 

[Piker]

You are not too slow... I just have cat like speed and reflexes in the cranial region...

ok, so maybe not....

The Econoburn runs it's circulator up until the water temp reaches 150 degrees... then it shuts off and the primary loop pump turns on. Pretty simple. I would like to just use relays to sense when the primary circulator is on to control the zone valve and the storage charge/discharge pumps. Obviously the charge pump would also have to run through the tekmar 157... which I don't think should be too difficult... but I have been wrong before... or actually most of the time.

I think I understand the basics of what I want to accomplish here. But basics don't really cut it. At this point I need to be sure that the little drawing I made will actually work. I am still a little worried about pump and pipe sizing with regard to the storage tank. Seems like the supply line on the primary loop would have to be bigger before the storage than after... It also seems like the return lines from the tank back to the boiler would have to be bigger as well. In both areas you will have the flow of "C" and "D1" going through those sections of pipe.

I used the free taco software... it said to move 200,000 BTU's you need 1.5" pipe at like 21 gallons/minute. This technical stuff is a bit over my head... I tried to use the system syzer you told me about... it's all greek to me. I might need to go to school for 4 years to figure out how to hook this thing up. Problem is... I don't have any other heat in the house at this time... nothing... nada... and it's getting cold.

"help"

 

[Piker]

Now I am too slow

 

[Piker]

Can the tekmar's be used to control zone valves?

 

[Piker]

OK... this is as complicated as I can make it. It's the only way I can come up with to prevent massive amounts of flow from more than one pump in any one section of plumbing.

Let me know what you think. It's expensive for sure... lots of valves... lots of controls... blugh. P2 probably has to be a decent sized pump too.

 

[Piker]

I think that Nofossil's' storage solution is probably the way to go. I didn't understand it when I first looked at it, cause I am new at this, but it makes very good sense to me now. Usually the simpler something is, the better. For the most part, I am trying to over-engineer something, and it's just turning into a big complex money pit.

I guess my only question now is... are you absolutely sure I can get all 200,000 Btu/hr into the tanks using 1.5" pipe at around 10 gpm? I don't want this boiler idling at all.

thanks in advance