Help with Supervent install

[BamaRama]

Well they never tested their ceiling box with a homemade extension either.
The bottom of the insulation shield is a perfect fit on the ceiling box.

Excellent point

 

[DougA]

All you are trying to do is make sure there is enough space to create an air barrier between the chimney and anything else. You don't want insulation falling or expanding into that space. I used a round cathedral support on mine because it was an easier fit between the beams and riveted a piece of sheet metal onto the existing support. On the roof, I had the metal vent and the homemade extension went up through the roof deck and part way into the vent. Fit perfectly. It's a lot of fiddlin' but take your time and line things up carefully.

 

[BamaRama]

Alright, I've been trying to put together the details of the install. Got everything above the ceiling figured out (I think).

At the moment, I'm planning on installing the 13NC. Now I get to the point of locating the stove and i find the confusing wall clearance issues that have been cussed and discussed on the forum. I've read everything I could find about it on the forum.

In regards to connector pipe clearance, first it says "Follow all venting system manufacturer’s installation requirements AND their required clearances." Then it says "If you have a ceiling flue hook-up, you will need protection from the floor to the ceiling if you do not meet the normal clearances. I hope this only applies to single wall pipe.

In regards to the required 15.5" for "double wall w/heat shields". It has a "heat shield" built on the stove. Do they mean clearance reduction? If so, why don't they say that somewhere? Why would they talk even about 36" wall clearance reduction? The most it can be reduced is to 12"

If a clearance reduction is required to be applied, would it go up the wall to the point greater than 36" from back of stove?

Couple of nights ignoring the wife and playing with the drawing program, I think I'm close to knowing how I'm going to do this. if you folks would take a look at this a give me some input, I would appreciate it. I'm not showing the connectors and attic shield yet.

TIA

 

[BamaRama]

bump?

 

[begreen]

Some stove manuals can be confusing, particularly when the discuss generic code that may not be applicable to the current situation. All that matters is what applies to your installation. That is proper stove clearances to walls and ceiling, proper clearance for the DSP connector (no less than 6" to any combustible), and proper clearances for the class A chimney pipe.

 

[Oldman47]

The drawings you have look fine to me. You are meeting the 3 foot rule at 40 inches and the 2 foot rule at 32 inches. Your framing box meets minimum standards at a full 12 inches in both directions. I do not see an insulation shield around the bottom area of the chimney which is required. The 6 inches from the DVL to the wall also meets all requirements. I have no idea about the standards for your particular stove so have no idea if it is OK.

 

[DougA]

I do not see an insulation shield around the bottom area of the chimney which is required.

Correct. Unless there is no insulation.

 

[BamaRama]

Thanks for the input. I will defer to Local. I really don't think I need a wall shield but may be stuck with building one because of the conflicts in the manual. I ordered a 4x8 sheet of 3/4 Micore 300 so all i will need to build it is some 1/4 Durock and tile.

I'm still studying on the attic insulation shield. It would not be that difficult to box in the affected space with MSD or paneling so it is isolated from the rest of the attic. There is plenty of clearance to do this. In that case I would only need an attic insulation shield for the insulation on the added framing. I found one on clearance at HD for 8 bucks . I'm going to have a bunch of paneling pulled off the wall that I can use for that purpose so the materials are cheap.

 

[BamaRama]

Unless there is no insulation.

The existing insulation on the finished ceiling will be above the top of the cathedral ceiling box so I will need to address it. I have the option of encasing it with sheet metal from the box up to to roof sheathing, or using the old paneling to encase the area, then use the attic ins. shield. The latter will less painful... I think...

 

[begreen]

Thanks for the input. I will defer to Local. I really don't think I need a wall shield but may be stuck with building one because of the conflicts in the manual. I ordered a 4x8 sheet of 3/4 Micore 300 so all i will need to build it is some 1/4 Durock and tile.

I'm still studying on the attic insulation shield. It would not be that difficult to box in the affected space with MSD or paneling so it is isolated from the rest of the attic. There is plenty of clearance to do this. In that case I would only need an attic insulation shield for the insulation on the added framing. I found one on clearance at HD for 8 bucks . I'm going to have a bunch of paneling pulled off the wall that I can use for that purpose so the materials are cheap.

What is the specific page and text of the manual that you feel is in conflict? Rather than spending a lot for something unnecessary, ping Mike Holton here (Englander support) @stoveguy2esw for clarification. Also, you will want to use at least 1/2" Durock for more rigidity on top of micore. Micore is soft and spongy.

 

[DougA]

I would use sheet metal for the shield.

 

[BamaRama]

you will want to use at least 1/2" Durock for more rigidity on top of micore. Micore is soft and spongy.

That's what I'm using on the floor. I assumed it wouldn't matter on the wall since it will just be hanging there blocking heat. I was just trying to put the extra Micore to good use. But if a wall board will be required, I may just use 1/2 Durock and tile.

In regards to conficts...
page 11, "3. If non-combustible materials have been installed on the walls, obtain the minimum clearances from either the manufacturer of these materials or the local building inspector’s office."

Page 9,
2. Wall Protection
Please see Illustration 1 for clearances to walls. In some areas local codes may require thirty-six inches (36”) from a combustible, therefore it is very important that you check with local officials. If you need to place your unit closer to a combustible wall, some protection will be necessary. If an approved wall board is used this will reduce your clearance by two thirds (2/3); however, a one inch (1”) air space has to be between the board and the wall.

Then in illustration 1 (attached), it talks about heat shields being used for double wall pipe. Heat shields where? When? in the corner or parallel with the wall? Added side heat shields are shown in another illustration. Is this where those apply? Illustration 1 shows no wall protection. It looks to me like they are trying to tell me that if i use double wall pipe, I have to move the stove out 2" more from the finished wall than if i were using single wall pipe... which by the way requires 18" clearance. And why is the difference between B and C 3" for single wall and 3'5 for double wall. Isn't this distance controlled by the location of the stove outlet in respect to the back of the stove? Not a legit set of requirements in my uneducated opinion.

I have seen this question asked several times. i just want to know how to explain it to a building inspector.

Thanks for your input and advice... I have a tough time with requirements because i enforce them for a living in another industry .

 

[begreen]

That's what I'm using on the floor. I assumed it wouldn't matter on the wall since it will just be hanging there blocking heat. I was just trying to put the extra Micore to good use. But if a wall board will be required, I may just use 1/2 Durock and tile.

In regards to conficts...
page 11, "3. If non-combustible materials have been installed on the walls, obtain the minimum clearances from either the manufacturer of these materials or the local building inspector’s office."
Sounds like Mike needs to do some cleanup for the next publication of this manual. Non-combustibles are non-combustible. Clearance requirements are to combustibles.

Page 9,
2. Wall Protection
Please see Illustration 1 for clearances to walls. In some areas local codes may require thirty-six inches (36”) from a combustible, therefore it is very important that you check with local officials. If you need to place your unit closer to a combustible wall, some protection will be necessary. If an approved wall board is used this will reduce your clearance by two thirds (2/3); however, a one inch (1”) air space has to be between the board and the wall.

I have never run into this except for an occasional insurance adjuster that has not updated their documentation since the early 1980s. The stove manual is the final and tested document guiding clearances to combustibles. When in doubt, ask the local inspecting authority.


Then in illustration 1 (attached), it talks about heat shields being used for double wall pipe. Heat shields where? When? in the corner or parallel with the wall? Added side heat shields are shown in another illustration. Is this where those apply? Illustration 1 shows no wall protection. It looks to me like they are trying to tell me that if i use double wall pipe, I have to move the stove out 2" more from the finished wall than if i were using single wall pipe... which by the way requires 18" clearance. And why is the difference between B and C 3" for single wall and 3'5 for double wall. Isn't this distance controlled by the location of the stove outlet in respect to the back of the stove? Not a legit set of requirements in my uneducated opinion.

My take is that the manual is referring to stove side and rear heat shields. To my knowledge there is no tested guideline for heat shields on double-wall connector pipe. Your confusion is understandable. Parts of this manual are poorly written with not enough detail and other parts are unnecessarily pedantic.

 

[BamaRama]

I think I will hang my hat on Illustration 1 where it states "unit to combustibles" with no mention of clearance reduction. That's all that makes sense to me. The rest is there to propagate confusion IMO. When I get the stove and pipe set, the back of the stove to finished wall clearance will satisfy b and c for double wall pipe. If I have to add clearance reduction method per local inspector interpretation, I will. I don't have a lot of confidence that the local authorities have an intricate knowledge of installing wood heaters. They are rare in these parts.

 

[begreen]

Are you getting a stove without the side shields? Have you started a conversation with Mike?

 

[BamaRama]

I wasn't planning on getting the side shields because the I have plenty of room on the sides. I did ask Mike to advise.

 

[begreen]

There was an old 13NC thread questioning Mike on why the larger rear clearance for double-wall. I can't remember the exact reason, but this is what measurement came out of testing the stove IIRC.

 

[BamaRama]

I found those threads. The stove tested hotter with the double wall pipe so the clearance changed. I think the 15.5 number is as tested to combustibles. It just that the other verbiage in the manual leads me to think that it's not.

 

[webby3650]

There was an old 13NC thread questioning Mike on why the larger rear clearance for double-wall. I can't remember the exact reason, but this is what measurement came out of testing the stove IIRC.

We ran into this issue once and had to call Englander for clarification.

 

[BamaRama]

I would use sheet metal for the shield.

Any particular reasoning for your suggestion? Not disputing, just wanting to learn.

 

[DougA]

Any particular reasoning for your suggestion?

In my case, it was required for code. I'd rather work with wood because I'm more used to it but sheet metal is very cheap and workable. If you have a sheet metal fabricator near you, you can probably get it made for $10. I just had some work done and it was cheaper than buying the metal at HD. I was surprised.

Why? Sheet metal is a non combustible vs. old paneling which is very combustible. Besides that, mice, squirrels, etc. will chew through a barrier of paneling in minutes and can make a great nest in the warm empty area against your chimney. Not so good. When I did mine, I made the sheet metal barrier right up to the top of the metal cone roof cap. It takes a few minutes of peeing around with tin snips but you always feel it's done right.

BTW, I went through similar frustrations when I did my install last Dec. All the manuals were re-read many times and I had to get clarification on this forum a few times, plus call the store where I bought the stove pipe and I spoke to the mfg. twice. I am positive that lots of people give up and just bang it together with a hammer in frustration. Even my inspector read the manual incorrectly and assumed that the corner install specs still had to be maintained for a flat wall install. IMHO, lawsuit waiting to happen when things are not clear enough for educated people.

 

[BamaRama]

Sheet metal is a non combustible vs. old paneling which is very combustible. Besides that, mice, squirrels, etc. will chew through a barrier of paneling in minutes and can make a great nest in the warm empty area against your chimney.

That makes sense to me. Dang varmints! I do have a sheet metal shop in town. I'll draw up something and see what they charge.

Sort of changing the subject here, but I'm trying to determine if a 45* stove pipe will mate to the ASE stovepipe adapter, and if it will, is it a good idea? I think it will look better and i can make the clearances since the chimney will be 3" into the room. The install is going to require a two way offset, so to speak. A little north-south and a little east-west. I can drop it down 6" or 12" but it wont do anything for the aesthetics.

 

[webby3650]

That makes sense to me. Dang varmints! I do have a sheet metal shop in town. I'll draw up something and see what they charge.

Sort of changing the subject here, but I'm trying to determine if a 45* stove pipe will mate to the ASE stovepipe adapter, and if it will, is it a good idea? I think it will look better and i can make the clearances since the chimney will be 3" into the room. The install is going to require a two way offset, so to speak. A little north-south and a little east-west. I can drop it down 6" or 12" but it wont do anything for the aesthetics.

The elbow can go right into the adaptor. It won't hurt performance and looks best up at the top. It's the best place for it.

 

[Oldman47]

To get all of my required clearances I connected 2 45º pipes back to back and from there directly into the adapter. It worked great and got me right where I needed to be with the pipe vs. the stove locations. The first 45 started the move sideways and the second finished it and resulted in the pipe aimed straight up again.

 

[DougA]

Supervent should have an offset table. I used ICC and it's table is shown on page 8 of this pdf. Once you figure out how to use the table, it will give you the exact offset you will get with any of their pipes and elbow degrees. I ended up with two 30 deg and a 30 is better than a 45 for cleaning, if it will fit.
http://www.icc-rsf.com/c/iccrsf/file_db/pdfs.pdf_en/UB-II-A_2014-07.pdf