High Valley Insert

[BHall]

Hey all. My brother-in-law just installed a used High Valley 2500 insert (cat stove) in his old open fireplace. He is having a problem getting stove top over 400 degrees. Wood being burnt is mixture of 2.5 year seasoned red oak and maple and 2 year seasoned shag bark hickory with Mc of 15.8 loaded east to west. 25' chimney set up placed in basement with dual flue with no liner. Any suggestions?

 

[Hogwildz]

Needs s.s. liner to start with, insulating the new liner wouldn't be a bad idea either. Basements can be tough to heat from due to pressure issues. Load the wood north to south if possible. Don't know much about cats, but is the cat engaging? I assume there is a bypass until the cat gets up to temp, is that closed once the cat reaches temp?

 

[Stubblefire]

I thought I was having same issue until I compared my new stove top thermometer to an laser thermometer and found out the stove top thermometer was reading 150f to low.

 

[kennyp2339]

Slammer insert, no good

 

[brettdacosta]

The brother in law here...

First off - You guys appear to be a very knowledgeable community. I'm looking forward to getting to know you.

So my main question is the following... HogWildz said I need a liner to start with. Was that more to be compliant with code or to both help get the draft going at the beginning of a fire and aide in the draw up the chimney once the fire is lit? As a follow up to that. What advantage if any does a liner help with once a fire is burning a you have a draft going?

A second question is... What primary purpose does insulation around a liner serve. Also, how important is it really?

Lastly, the manual calls for either an 8" liner (the size stove opening I have) or approves the use of a 8"x6" reducer and a 6" liner? How bad would it be to reduce and run a 6" liner? There is a 6" on Craigslist, and it's tough (and expensive) to find 8", and I'll have trouble with them in my damper and maybe in my 11"x11" square flue. However, the manual also approves the use of a slammer, and I'm hearing negatives about those. What problems would I possibly run into and how bad would they be by reducing? Thoughts?

Thanks,

 

[begreen]

Welcome. Basement installs can be tough for draft due to negative pressure. The liner aids draft by providing a correctly sized continuous flue from stove to chimney cap. Without it draft is much weaker and in a slammer install it is further diluted by changing pipe size and being able to pull air around the surround. The rapid change in pipe flue size weakens draft and cools down the flue gases so that even if it drafts ok initially, the wood gases are likely to condense in the chimney as creosote. Also, as the fire cools down in the coaling stage there is a greater chance for draft reversal. This could be deadly if it allows CO to enter the house. Insulation is both safety insurance and it greatly helps the flue gases stay hotter up to the chimney cap. This means a cleaner flue with less buildup. This is especially important with a cat stove that can have cooler flue gases to start with. Once they get below 250F they start condensing on the walls of the chimney.

Before a liner goes in the chimney must be thoroughly cleaned top to bottom including the smoke shelf.

 

[Woody Stover]

The round stainless liner will also be easier to clean. There are different grades of flex liner (I'm assuming the CL liner is a flex, not rigid.) The thinnest are .05", then there is a middle-weight .06". I would get at least the middle-weight, but I went ahead and put in a heavy-duty liner. I would avoid the two-ply liners, as there have been some problems reported with de-lamination. You could use rigid liner (which is heavy-duty) if you have a straight shot, but it's a little more work to install. There is also pre-insulated flex liner available. Reducing to 6", if approved in the manual, should work OK with 25' of stack, unless there are negative pressure issues. If you know the brand of liner, then you can get the other parts you need from the same maker, and everything will work together and fit properly. Have you got a link to the CL liner you found?
(broken link removed to http://www.hartshearth.com/ProductCart/pc/viewPages.asp?idpage=15)
(broken link removed to http://www.hartshearth.com/ProductCart/pc/viewCategories.asp?idCategory=25)

 

[brettdacosta]

Here's the link to the liner - (broken link removed to http://huntsville.craigslist.org/for/5945131624.html)- It appears to be .005" single wall.

begreen - I'd be curious to know your reasoning for a thorough cleaning before installation (besides it will be harder to do later and the obvious safety reasons). My chimney was professionally cleaned a couple years ago, since then, I've only burned maybe 15-20 open (hot) fires in it and only a couple fires in the insert to try it out. It appeared pretty clean the other day when I was looking up and down both clay flues (although I really don't know how clean a chimney is supposed to be). The smoke shelf seemed to have some ash on it when we were up inside the open fireplace (I can vacuum it out the best we can though), but it didn't seem to have much creosote. I'm just curious if we need to have a professional come and clean it better than I'm able to accomplish?

Woody Stover - a few things regarding the reduction from 8" to 6"... From what I've read, XTEC used to own high valley, and when they changed hands, I don't believe they re-wrote the manual even though the code may have been updated with new installation requirements - this is how the slammer install is still an approved installation method in the manual. From what I've read (and been told from a local chimney service company), reducing the flue isn't allowed. I would like to reduce the flue size to 1. avoid cutting the damper plate out 2. be able to fit it down the existing flue with more clearance and 3. save money (6" liners are cheaper). However, I would like to make sure I don't have problems with it later down the road. How can I guarantee that 6" will work fine, and what possible issues would I be fighting by reducing the liner size?

Thanks,

 

[kennyp2339]

Well if the manual says approved 8x6" reducer then you can install a 6" flex liner to it, you should have good draw with approx. 25ft chimney height so that's a no worry there.
Cleaning the chimney is required to A: remove combustible material that has built up in there, B: remove any chance for that moist chimney smell in the summer.
I would get the existing chimney inspected to determine is its in good condition, ie no cracked flue tiles and proper masonry clearance to combustibles (house framing)
Due to the stove being a cat I would lean towards an insulated liner, this will keep the cooler flue gases warmer and cause less condensing (reduce creosote build up) also an insulated liner is insurance incase you have a chimney fire, the chances of the fire over powering the liner and into your structure is reduced immensely. *you may be forced to install an insulated liner if your chimney does not meet the right clearance to combustibles.
Look into installing a block off plate in the smoke shelf area, this will reduce the heat going up the chimney that the insert produces, many members here that ran an insert without a block off plate then put on it reported a 10fold increase in heat production, longer burn times, cleaner chimneys, and used less wood.

 

[bholler]

this is how the slammer install is still an approved installation method in the manual

A direct connect is still acceptable not a slammer and it clearly says that a full liner is the preferred method. Everything else seems to be covered already. The chimney needs to be clean. The liner should be insulated and may need to be to meet code. If the manual says you can use 6" you can. I really dont see what if it will work fine on 6" they have an 8" outlet though it sounds strange to me.

 

[begreen]

begreen - I'd be curious to know your reasoning for a thorough cleaning before installation (besides it will be harder to do later and the obvious safety reasons). My chimney was professionally cleaned a couple years ago, since then, I've only burned maybe 15-20 open (hot) fires in it and only a couple fires in the insert to try it out. It appeared pretty clean the other day when I was looking up and down both clay flues (although I really don't know how clean a chimney is supposed to be). The smoke shelf seemed to have some ash on it when we were up inside the open fireplace (I can vacuum it out the best we can though), but it didn't seem to have much creosote. I'm just curious if we need to have a professional come and clean it better than I'm able to accomplish?

Trapped creosote has the potential to ignite at an unopportune time. If it does it can be very hard for a firefighter to put out. If you have brushes and are able to clean the chimney thoroughly and vacuum the smoke shelf then it could be ok.

 

[brettdacosta]

A direct connect is still acceptable not a slammer and it clearly says that a full liner is the preferred method. Everything else seems to be covered already. The chimney needs to be clean. The liner should be insulated and may need to be to meet code. If the manual says you can use 6" you can. I really dont see what if it will work fine on 6" they have an 8" outlet though it sounds strange to me.

My apologies. I thought a slammer was when you used a liner long enough to discharge just past the damper, but it looks like that's actually acceptable and termed a direct connection. Thanks for clearing that up.

That was my thought too - if necking the 8" to a 6" is acceptable, why not just have a 6" stove collar in the first place?

Here's what they actually state in the manual... makes it seem like there is a particular adapter is required to use a 6" liner...
"Use eight inch (8") (152mm) diameter (or six inch (6") (203mm) diameter with the use of a High Valley 8" to 6" adapter P/N: FLUCOL-86) minimum 24 MSG black steel connector pipe or pipe of a greater gauge."

begreen - thanks for that explanation.

Any comments on the CL liner?

 

[bholler]

Any comments on the CL liner?

It is the minimum liner I would recommend for a wood stove but it will work fine. I would add an insulation kit to it though. But it is a good price for a new liner from a reputable company.

 

[brettdacosta]

Well... She took $150 for the CL liner.

I also dropped a tape down the chimney today. Looks like I'll need 22 feet to the top of the clay flue.

The listing was only for 20 feet. Do they normal come exactly the advertised length or do they have some play (stretch) in them?

I also snapped a picture of the flue we'll be dropping the insert in. A couple questions about install though...

Can someone help me find an approved flue collar adapter to convert the 8" stove outlet to the 6" liner? I've found a few, but they don't advertise if they're for gas or wood. (http://www.truevalue.com/product/Black-Stove-Pipe-Flue-Reducer-24-Ga-8-x-6-In-/60440.uts)

How would I seal the adapter to the stove or do I need to? And then what's the best way to make the connection from the adapter to the liner?

I have a few more questions about terminating the top of the liner, but I'll save though for the next post. I also posted a picture of the top and a couple looking down the flue.

Lastly, I need suggestions getting from my left flue to the center of my firebox and into the adapter, so I posted a picture with the insert pulled out.

Any advise or comments?

Thanks,

 

[bholler]

Can someone help me find an approved flue collar adapter to convert the 8" stove outlet to the 6" liner? I've found a few, but they don't advertise if they're for gas or wood. (http://www.truevalue.com/product/Black-Stove-Pipe-Flue-Reducer-24-Ga-8-x-6-In-/60440.uts)

The adapter needs to be stainless so that one will not work

The listing was only for 20 feet. Do they normal come exactly the advertised length or do they have some play (stretch) in them?

You are not going to get an extra 2' no you will need to get a coupler and a small piece of liner.

You also need to get all of that glazed creosote out of there before installing.

 

[brettdacosta]

The adapter needs to be stainless so that one will not work


You are not going to get an extra 2' no you will need to get a coupler and a small piece of liner.

You also need to get all of that glazed creosote out of there before installing.

Thanks for the reply.

Can you provide a stainless alternate for the adapter?

Also, what's the best way to clean creosote glazing?

 

[redyute]

Hey all. My brother-in-law just installed a used High Valley 2500 insert (cat stove) in his old open fireplace. He is having a problem getting stove top over 400 degrees. Wood being burnt is mixture of 2.5 year seasoned red oak and maple and 2 year seasoned shag bark hickory with Mc of 15.8 loaded east to west. 25' chimney set up placed in basement with dual flue with no liner. Any suggestions?

My 1500 bearly gets over 400° top temp, but I have no problem with it, I still see cat temps of 1350° and good heat output.That's with using an ir thermometer. Highest I've ever seen was 435°.

 

[brettdacosta]

The adapter needs to be stainless so that one will not work


You are not going to get an extra 2' no you will need to get a coupler and a small piece of liner.

You also need to get all of that glazed creosote out of there before installing.

I'm sorry to be dense, but I'm trying to save myself just a little bit of money. I can go buy the original part, but it's like $150 from the manufacturer (not sure what would ever make this part that expensive though), and I'm pretty sure I can find it cheaper somewhere else. Below is an adapter... It's female to female though. If I think about this correctly, I think need a male 8" by female 6" to ensure creosote falls back in the stove.

http://chimneylinerdepot.com/product/reducerincreaser-8inf-to-6inf/

A follow up question... Is sealing the flue collar into the stove worth it (and if so, could I get a picture of someone's setup)?

I'm also going to need an elbow to help shift the pipe over to avoid my damper plate control arm, and I've seen a couple different types. 1.) The flex style (with a threaded pipe band - worm gear) - https://www.rockfordchimneysupply.com/adjustable-elbow-for-flexible-liners.php OR 2.) A rigid fixed style (with the 3 screw holes) - https://www.rockfordchimneysupply.com/adjustable-rigid-liner-elbow-304l.php

Thoughts?

 

[bholler]

A follow up question... Is sealing the flue collar into the stove worth it (and if so, could I get a picture of someone's setup)?

As long as it fits correctly than no there is no need for it.

I think need a male 8" by female 6" to ensure creosote falls back in the stove.

Yes that is what you need.

I'm also going to need an elbow to help shift the pipe over to avoid my damper plate control arm, and I've seen a couple different types. 1.) The flex style (with a threaded pipe band - worm gear) - https://www.rockfordchimneysupply.com/adjustable-elbow-for-flexible-liners.php

Yes you will need this tye the ones for rigid pipe will not allow the liner to fit into it properly and with the light wall liner you got you need to use the clamp not screws to attach it.

 

[brettdacosta]

Yes you will need this tye the ones for rigid pipe will not allow the liner to fit into it properly and with the light wall liner you got you need to use the clamp not screws to attach it.

Here is a picture of the components that came with the liner. The stove connector doesn't have a band clamp on it (meaning the liner just sits down inside the female end of it), so I don't think they're completely necessary. The connector has 3 holes, so would I just put those 3 screws through the connector and into the liner and then furnace cement caulk around it?

A question about the transition from 8" to 6"... how bad is it to have it located off the stove a bit? In other words, in listing the components from the stove up to the top... how much worse is:

8" 45° elbow (connecting directly to the stove outlet), 2 feet of 8" liner, 8" to 6" reducer, 20 feet of 6" liner
over
8" to 6" reducer (connecting directly to the stove outlet), 2 feet of 6" liner, 6" coupling, 20 feet of 6" liner

Both costs will end up being about the same, but I think the 8" 45° elbow will definitely help with the ease of install in the firebox.

Thanks,

 

[armanidog]

I hate to add to your workload.
The chimney has cracked mortar on top. Rainwater is seeping into the brick and between the brick and clay flue. As it freezes it causes damage to the brick and flue liner. It looks like someone tried to re-grout or caulk the brick mortar. Until you fix the top the mortar will keep cracking.
You'll need to remove any loose pieces and apply a layer of mortar about a half inch thick on top. After that dries for a week, apply some chimney top sealer, you just brush it on.
This will keep water out of the brick, mortar, and clay liner.

 

[brettdacosta]

I hate to add to your workload.
The chimney has cracked mortar on top. Rainwater is seeping into the brick and between the brick and clay flue. As it freezes it causes damage to the brick and flue liner. It looks like someone tried to re-grout or caulk the brick mortar. Until you fix the top the mortar will keep cracking.
You'll need to remove any loose pieces and apply a layer of mortar about a half inch thick on top. After that dries for a week, apply some chimney top sealer, you just brush it on.
This will keep water out of the brick, mortar, and clay liner.

I'm aware. Thank you for the reminder though.

 

[brettdacosta]

A few questions about damper plates?

- Why is stainless steel always used for chimney components? Can I use a different material sheet metal for a damper plate?
- Would chimney liner insulation work for the insulation on the back of the damper plate (and if so, how well would it work - I can't find an R value for it)? I'm thinking about purchasing some extra length for the liner insulation and using a few layers of it for the back of the damper plate? What do you guys think about this?

Thanks,

 

[bholler]

The connector has 3 holes, so would I just put those 3 screws through the connector and into the liner and then furnace cement caulk around it?

Then it is not the correct connector for that liner

- Why is stainless steel always used for chimney components?

Because it can stand up to the heat and corrosive nature of wood exhaust

Can I use a different material sheet metal for a damper plate?

Yes it is not in the smoke stream so absolutely we typically use galvanized sheet metal

- Would chimney liner insulation work for the insulation on the back of the damper plate (and if so, how well would it work -

Yes that is typically what we use but roxul also works fine

 

[brettdacosta]

bholler,

Thanks for the replies. Help me understand though...

But it is a good price for a new liner from a reputable company.

Then it is not the correct connector for that liner

You're confusing... - first it's reputable, and now they're sending the wrong connector with their liner kits...

Here is the kit... and numerous other brands have the same style connector. What's so wrong with it? Especially with some gasket material inserted in between the stove connection and the connector and/or maybe a bead of furnace cement around it.

(broken link removed to http://www.woodstovepro.com/store/DuraVent-DuraFlex-6-304-Stainless-Steel-25-DuraFlex-Kit-6DF304-25K-p15164.html)

Thanks for more of an explanation.