Hole in smoke shelf

[cernigs23]

We were getting a bad creosote smell from our fire place every year when there would be any humidity in the air. I made sure my chimney cap is nice and tight and that I would clean out fire place well. I stuck my hand up on top of smoke shelf and there was about a 5 gal pale worth of chit up there and when I stuck my hand towards the end of smoke shelf there’s a big hole and I can feel damp insulation in the hole. I want to put a wood stove insert with a fan so that I can actually get some efficiency to the fire place. Can I just cut the old steel out with a angle grinder or sawzall without removing the brick? I’ll post some pics I appreciate the advice in advance. Thanks.

 

[jetsam]

Nice dog.

Do not burn any more fires in that unit. The firebox is rusted through, possibly due to a water leak. That is very dangerous.

Can you get a manufacturer/model off a tag anywhere on the unit?

 

[cernigs23]

No model but I’m sure it’s original to the house built in 82-84. I believe I have a ceramic liner. The cap had some repair work done to it before I bought the house. Explains how the moisture got in there. Ya it’s for sure rusted out. You can see I have the vents with the small fans. I want to say they just run along the side of the box and not behind it. Has anyone ever cut a steel box like this out? I’m mechanical inclined so I’d rather do the grunt work instead of paying someone to do it. Just looking to see if anyone has any experience with this situation thanks.

 

[bholler]

Yeah it is a standard heat form cut out enough of the back wall so you canclean the crap out of the inside then install the insert with insulated liner and blockoff plate

 

[cernigs23]

Can you be more specific about how to cut so I can install the block off plate. Is there just insulation behind the heat form then brick? Any picks of what it should look like after I cut. Thanks


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[cernigs23]

Can you be more specific about how to cut so I can install the block off plate. Is there just insulation behind the heat form then brick? Any picks of what it should look like after I cut. Thanks


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[bholler]

Can you be more specific about how to cut so I can install the block off plate. Is there just insulation behind the heat form then brick? Any picks of what it should look like after I cut. Thanks


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Cut out as much as you need to in order to get in there and clean it out and to allow for a liner to pass through. Then I usually pack that void with roxul and cover the holes with sheet metal. Then your blockoff plate.

 

[cernigs23]

Alright thanks for the advice. I already cleaned out the smoke shelf, pieces of creosote about 3/4” thick. It was damp too. The smell has gotten better since I cleared all that crap out. I would imagine that I want to get all that insulation out of there and replace with “Roxul” you said? Thanks


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[spudman99]

Yes that insulation looks to be fiberglass. I have recently been working with roxul in an apartment renovation. It is much easier to work with compared to fiberglass. You use a serated knife (bread knife) to cut it any way you want, holds its shape and doesn't compress nearly as much. Pull out as much of that old stuff as you can.

 

[jetsam]

Fiberglass melts at 600 degrees and may have flammable paper backing on it. Bad stuff.

 

[MAD MARK]

Keep us updated with your progress as well as pictures. We can give pointers on what your doing right/can do better. Sounds like you're headed in the right direction.

 

[cernigs23]

Will do thanks. I have a ranch home about 2k sq ft. What kind of stoves should I be looking at. Thanks


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[cernigs23]

Alright here’s the progress I’ve made. I went through 4 cutoff wheels and took a few hours to get a big enough chunk out of the back and smoke shelf(see pics). I was able to get most of insulation out. I had the chimney swept for $329(wife’s piece of mind) and being a humid warm day today in Wisconsin after running the air conditioner the creosote smell was back and just as bad. The smell is my(wife’s)biggest concern. You guys recommend using a torch and cutting the whole thing out and cleaning it really good? Or should I put the wood stove insert in as is and insulate the opening really well? I also noticed my ash dump goes all the way down to foundation and there’s no clean out that I can see. Should I seal that up? Do I have to worry about moisture coming from there? Maybe that’s where the A/C is pulling the smell from? Biggest concern I have is that I put the insert in and seal it up good and next year comes around and the smell comes back. Wife wouldn’t be happy.

 

[xterra]

see BHOLLER's post above. i had the *delightful* experience of dealing with the same issue from a previous homeowner... The dude decided he was going to cut out the rust but apparently didnt realize the steel plates were used so the masons could just slap a fireplace together (and hence was not like just sliding out an old fireplace insert.

I had to correct a lot of previous damage so called in professionals to rebuilt the firebox, closed off the old ash dump, and rebuild the hearth. Consult with the guys here as to whether you should cut out the facing of the heatform to give you more room for a new insert. unsure what you current measurements are vs. woodstove size.

 

[cernigs23]

Do you guys think I should cut more of that back plate out so I can clean up the crap that fell behind it? I was thinking about renting a plasma cutter to get her done... also should I close up the ash dump? Any tricks on getting that done. Thanks


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[KrisP]

I have an almost identical heatform with the same issues except my water damage was from years of no cap from previous owners. Took a few good hours with the shop vac to get it all cleaned. I have a small section of the back face cut out to fit the new liner, I was under the impression that if you cut the entire back out you would have to take it all out and build a new firebox before installing insert due to safety/structural issues.

 

[bholler]

As long as you have enough masonry thickness left to meet code there is no need to rebuild a box for an insert.

If there is allot of sorts that you can't clean out as is then yes you may need to remove more. But personally I don't see the point in a torch or plasma cutter. I have seen guys do it that way and I am just as fast with a grinder and sawzall. Without all of the smoke and fumes of a torch or plasma cutter.

And yes seal the ash dump. A price of sheet metal siliconed down works fine

 

[cernigs23]

The steel is pretty damn thick that’s all. Going to try and keep the cutting down to a minimum to make it easier to insulate. The more air tight I can keep that compartment it shouldn’t draft a smell in the summer months. I will have to decide if I want to use sheet metal and or just rolux I think it’s called and just stuff it in.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[cernigs23]

As long as you have enough masonry thickness left to meet code there is no need to rebuild a box for an insert.

If there is allot of sorts that you can't clean out as is then yes you may need to remove more. But personally I don't see the point in a torch or plasma cutter. I have seen guys do it that way and I am just as fast with a grinder and sawzall. Without all of the smoke and fumes of a torch or plasma cutter.

And yes seal the ash dump. A price of sheet metal siliconed down works fine

Thanks for the advice sir much appreciated I’ll update with more photos as soon as I can get to it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[cernigs23]

We’re getting there... used an engine hoist to lift stove out of truck and was able to set it on my porch. Dragged it inside and put it on a painters tarp. I’ll take all the fire brick out to lift onto hearth. After military discount purchased stove, vent kit, and face kit from northern tool for under $1,200. Not too bad. What do you guys recommend for silicone to seal up ash dump and to seal the vent cap. Thanks!

 

[begreen]

A good quality silicone like GE Silicone II is fine. Those areas don't get that hot.

 

[cernigs23]

I haven’t posted in a while because Tapatalk wasn’t working. I had to go to website and re log in. I got the stove installed! I put in a block off plate with insulation above it. I calked all the seems and had 2 full days of burning. It got into the 30’s last night and house stayed up to 73 degrees at 4:30 am when I left duck hunting.

My wife wants to leave the surround off for now because it hides too much of the brick which is fine because half the hardware was missing when I opened it.

 

[moresnow]

Looks great. I miss duck hunting!