How I ended up with my current stoves and how they deliver

[elkimmeg]

I don’t know if this year is a good year to index stove performance. First we had a mild winter up to 3 weeks ago I think we all got a false sense of stove that ours stoves were up to the heating task Only a few cold days no extended cold spells That changes about 3 weeks back For me I have changed my heating habits here as well. My second stove was used only occasionally not every day. Using the second stove reduces the area the main stove has to heat. One reason the second stove has been used more is the lack of inside carpentry work. For those in construction, you how little work there is? I admit I am struggling. It did not help to be supporting my son while he interns in Boulder Co. and still supporting another daughter plus their auto expenses like tires, brakes ext. I thought once they finished college, I was home free?

The flip side is that I’m around the home more to feed the stoves. Now that we are in this cold snap, burn time are adjusted. Quite difference staying warm, when the stove only needs 450 to 500 surface top temps, to keep one comfortable. We all know BTU’s a, area heated and burn time are inflated. I would like to go by this definition (productive heat). Productive heat is a griddle surface temp over 400/ 450.,at the time of reload.
Extended burn time is useless when one rakes a few remaining hot coals and ads kindling. Stoves at 300 and below are useless when it’s cold out.

For 30 years my routine was to get up early AM and reload my prior stoves. They never produced productive heat, long enough to bridge the night. I fiddled constantly with dampers, air controls and reloads. Enter my next stove the cat Encore. Statistically it boasted 18% heating more capacity than my Resolute Acclaim. But a few other things changed the firebox is .5 cu ft bigger. Log loading capacity increased, being able to get wider pieces in, and length increased from 16’ to 20” I can place wider and longer mother split /round for overnight burns. All prior stove dampened down, I watched the temps drop I adder primary air fiddles and suffered through trying to heat this place.
Last year I replaces my mid 80’ plate steel stove with the smaller 1988 Intrepid 11 Never owned a cat stove did not know what to expect. Half a** it and put it in operation. Engaged the cat damper and smoked the room out man smoke was coming out everywhere. Smoke alarms going off all windows open and fans running. It was going to be junked or I had to rebuild it The replacement stove was already given to another family and my wife was not going to allow a new stove purchase. To heap more into the situation, she was giving it to me. All husbands have seen that look and been on the receiving end of wife scorn. I mean she was dishing it out, I needed a rock to crawl under. I never rebuilt a stove, only changed a few gaskets. Did not know what I was getting into. Hauled it into the garage and starter to take it apart. And wondered if I would ever get it back together again and would it be safe? It had the original cat combustor stamped 1987 but the honeycomb was intact but it was clogged. The first good news, was the combustor housing was in good shape AS I was cleaning it up the compressed air and ash dust cloud exposed the refractory seams Damn It had to be completer disassembled. I though about the quick fix just caulk everything, but I came to my senses and did not want to be in the same position after another smoke out and the wife on the warpath. Actually it went easier than expected it was back in service after one weekend. Still wondering how safe it was and a wife doubting my abilities and me wondering the same. ( if I replace a window here she will ask if I know what I’m doing?)
I usually tell he no but remind her people pay me to do this.

I installed the stove it looked so little compared to the old plate steel stove it will never heat this room? I mean every dealertold me cat stoves are no good problematic and costly cat replacement are required Stovecombustor.com replacement $59 and David V recommended them and had success. I placed the order Meanwhile I dying to try out my rebuild even with the old combustor. but now really cleaned. Got to try it out..


part 1

 

[elkimmeg]

Part 2

Fired it up got the surface up to 550 pulled the damper engaging the cat, all of a sudden I get the back draft rumble. Oh chit!, now what do I do, don’t panic maybe it will go away. One has to understand I’m in un-chartered waters here. The rumble is getting louder if it get any louder, my pants will be soiled and I’m running for the extinguisher. I don’t know how long it lasted but it calmed down. I go outside, see smoke exiting the chimney and figure the cat not working. I check it 10 minutes later no smoke, damn it working. By now the stove has climbed past 600 degrees and I’m still in a panic stage. I cut the primary air back and it steadied out around 550 degrees. The room temperature is rising and the stove id holding steady and hours pass and some more and it holding the temp.. The room is now at 74 degrees and 5 hours later the stove is still above 500. I have not adjusted the primary air again. This must be a fluke around 56 hours it starts to drop Feeling quite satisfied I really load it up. It repeats the burn cycle and a bit longer this is the first time I ever set a stove and did not have to fiddle with it. It was out performing the larger Resolute Acclaim. I don’t know if it was the cat or thematically controlled secondary air but fir the first time I was experiencing results I read others were on Hearth,com. I had heard about longer burn times and heat production but never experience it personally till now.

As days turned into weeks then months, this little stove delivered. It exceeded every expectation and now I was wondering why so many had dissed cat combustor stoves?
Hell this was the easiest stove I ever operated. It was the closest to set and forget I have ever experienced.

My mind is wandering. What if I installed a cat stove instead of my Resolute Acclaim? The wife is not going to take any additional expense lightly. I take measurements and find out an Encore will line up with my existing flue outlet I also research and find the Encore has the optional 6” flue collar. One day while doing a gas stove installation inspection there is a decent looking forest green Encore in a garage. I asked about it and the lady tells me she has no need for it .It was her father’s and was only used 2 seasons. The inspection failed very poor flue connection. I return for a re-inspection again I look the stove over and its in decent shape but the color? A month goes by and I call her she has found a buyer damn but if it falls through she will call me. I got the call $500 and its mine. I’m really out of a limb here no wife approval. I make the purchase. I put it in the garage and start examining it its in better shape than I thought the cat combustor is perfect I clean it all out and replace some gaskets and purchase handles and missing andirons I installed it in Sept and rebuilt the Resolute Acclaim and sold it to one of our Forum member. The swap ended up to be a wash.

Performance wise it has delivered. It has exceeded my expectations I do not have to wake up in the early AM to feed it. what I do is leave 3 smaller splits near the stove so Ellen can load it. She gets up earlier than me for her job an hour later it is usually cooking along over 500 degrees On the days she does not feed it 7;00 am it still is above 400 degrees and plenty of coals to drop splits in d for reload. To be truthful keeping it above 500 degrees shortens the productive heat range by an hour. It does not self load nor is it self cleaning It does not have wheels attached to be rolled out for cleaning and 425 lbs on a raised hearth is a beast to move. Some makes jokes about t my claims of performance. My oil man can verify that.. I only wished I was not talked out of purchasing a cat Encore, when I bought the Resolute Acclaim. The dealer steered me away and dissed the crap out of cat combustor stoves. I heard the same argument, presented here too many times. I realize what works for me, does not work for others. Up till a year and ½ back I believed what was said about Cat stoves.. I fell into experiencing them, by accident. It ’s ok to let me enjoy the experience and extra sleep

 

[TMonter]

My experience with Cat stoves is they work well when operated properly but are far less forgiving. Non-Cat stoves are far less cranky when it comes to starting up and if you occasionally burn some wood that really hasn't been all that seasoned they'll do it without having issues like a Cat stove will.

The biggest thing about a well designed non-cat stove is you'll never have to change the catalyst out or clean one. In my mind cat stoves are usually not as well designed from a combustion standpoint as they rely on the catalyst for secondary combustion rather than good firebox/air control design.

 

[elkimmeg]

My experience with Cat stoves is they work well when operated properly but are far less forgiving. Non-Cat stoves are far less cranky when it comes to starting up and if you occasionally burn some wood that really hasn't been all that seasoned they'll do it without having issues like a Cat stove will.

The biggest thing about a well designed non-cat stove is you'll never have to change the catalyst out or clean one. In my mind cat stoves are usually not as well designed from a combustion standpoint as they rely on the catalyst for secondary combustion rather than good firebox/air control design.

here where I differ with your oppinion these stoves have designed the cat and cat combustion chamber w in conjunction with secondary air usabe to another level What you are refering to is when cat combustor stoves were first introduced Combustors were retrofitted into existing stoves and exhibited the flaws you pointed out They never worked well
With extensive R&D a secondary Cat Combustor chamber was needed. to take full advantage of secondary burn. the Cat combustor stove that survived refined the technology and chambeers they figured to down draft the smoke over the hot coals pre heat the secondary air by building in channels it has to pass before entering the cat combustion chamber this process sets up a mini gassification of smoke and combustion. R&D has not deid for cat advancement today a cat can light off under 400 degrees the fire box does not have to exceed 1000 degrees inorder for secondary combustion to occurein cat stoves it can occure less than 400 degrees. I have been told by Vermont Castings they have a super Combustor that blows away all current combustors
the reason it is not appearing in stoves is it cost too much to produce. They are working on a way to reduce manufacturing cost to place the combustor in their stove lineup.
The just re-certified the Encore to 2011. A move that indicates they are planning to continue Cat combustion. I find my stoves easier to opperate than the many I have used the past 30 years
but I designed my home and chimneys for wood stove use. I planned and built a separate interior 8/8. My draft situation is ideal to run any stove

Every week issues are posted here complaining about underpreformance of stoves due to week draft or less than seasoned wood. Does not matter what manufacture of the stove is or whether it is a cat or non cat stove week draft is a chimney condition. Asx for your statment about cat not taking kindly to less than seasoned wood? all modern stoves suffer from less than seasoned wood preformance Every installation manual addresses the need for season wood usage. Sir that's a lame excuse

 

[ansehnlich1]

Elk, you're making it tough on deciding what stove to get. I currently have a downpayment on a Phoenix, but I burned a Defiant Cat. all last year in my old house, about 2800 sq. ft. and that Defiant Cat heated that home no problem. Now, I'd load through that top door, which is sweet, and then let that air open til she reached 500 or so, then close off the Cat damper, and sometimes that combuster would low orange like a mini blast furnace in there, sometimes not, never could figure that out, but I'd leave for work at 6:30 or so in the morning and could still reload that thing at 4pm without having to start a whole new fire, and all this with 8 inch pipe into an exterior brick masonry tile lined chimney.

New house is smaller and I don't think I need a Defiant sized stove, but built the hearth to take the Phoenix, or the Encore, or even a Jotul...clearance wise.

Tell me how to add a pic and I'll show you my hearth.

 

[elkimmeg]

at the bottom of the post here you can add an atachment providing it is sized under 256 KB or you can use a web hosting site like photobucket .
then cut and paste the link of your picture or pictures here within this text place.
Iam going to post this, then go back into this post and supply links to pictures of my Encore in action

Open fire screen operation

http://s108.photobucket.com/albums/n10/elkimmeg/?action=view&current=IM006496.jpg


top view and thermometer location

http://s108.photobucket.com/albums/n10/elkimmeg/?action=view&current=IM006495.jpg

Front view without the fire screen

http://s108.photobucket.com/albums/n10/elkimmeg/?action=view&current=IM006494.jpg

the day it arrived before I took it into the garage to go through the stove.

http://s108.photobucket.com/albums/n10/elkimmeg/?action=view&current=IM006439.jpg

Please not the front handles I made and are attached no more looking to the handles to open the stove


The intrepid before I touched up and cleaned this is from last yera it looks much better touched up

 

[ansehnlich1]

ok elk, here's my hearth. it's 64in wide and 56 deep, 2 inches durock on subfloor and brick on top. That 6 in. thimble goes to an outside masonry chimney with 7x7 inside diameter.....i know that ain't the best but it's what i got to work with. I'll reline if I have to some day. I can tell you i tore a piece of insulation off and set it on that thimble and it sucked it right in there.

 

[seaken]

My experience with Cat stoves is they work well when operated properly but are far less forgiving. Non-Cat stoves are far less cranky when it comes to starting up and if you occasionally burn some wood that really hasn't been all that seasoned they'll do it without having issues like a Cat stove will.

The biggest thing about a well designed non-cat stove is you'll never have to change the catalyst out or clean one. In my mind cat stoves are usually not as well designed from a combustion standpoint as they rely on the catalyst for secondary combustion rather than good firebox/air control design.

It's funny, we've had exactly the opposite experience. I have always told my clients that the cat stoves are more forgiving when it comes to less than perfect fuel. All our non-cats (except the Acclaim and new EverBurn types) must have nearly perfect wood for best results. In my mind catalytic stoves are usually better designed from a combustion standpoint as they rely on the catalyst for secondary combustion along with good firebox/air control design.

 

[elkimmeg]

I see a VC cat stove in your near future Here is another post you should be following

https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/6524/

 

[TMonter]

It’s funny, we’ve had exactly the opposite experience. I have always told my clients that the cat stoves are more forgiving when it comes to less than perfect fuel. All our non-cats (except the Acclaim and new EverBurn types) must have nearly perfect wood for best results. In my mind catalytic stoves are usually better designed from a combustion standpoint as they rely on the catalyst for secondary combustion along with good firebox/air control design.

What brand non-cats do you carry?

I've used three brands of Non-Cat and three brands of Cat stoves and my experience is I like the non-cat stoves better. Some of that is personal preference but a lot of it is I'm a combustion engineer and purist when it comes to wood combustion.

Non Cat Stoves I've Used:

Quadrafire - 3100i, 4100i, 7100, 5700

Kuma - Tamarack, Wood Classic

Englander - 13NCL, 30NCP

Cat Stoves:

Blaze King Princess

Englander Cat Stove (Albiet an older one)

The last stove I don't know the brand, it was a cast stove I tinkered with but I believe it was a Lopi.

The biggest design deficiency I see in non-cat stoves is the firebox layout. For good combustion in a non cat situation you need a deeper narrower firebox than in a cat stove. This is why Quadrafires perform so well, they have a deep firebox and gives enough time for the secondary gasses to burn off before exiting the stove.