How Much to Wire Small Bathroom

[vinny11950]

This is the kind of before shot. This all started when I was chasing a very small leak from behind the toilet. I pulled the toilet to get a better view and the floor was rotted, the toilet flange was barely holding, the toilet had a hairline crack at the back, and the tiles around the toilet came loose. There was no going back.



That nice piece of plywood on the floor with the hole on it was me trying to patch the toilet floor at first.

If you ain't bleeding, you ain't trying. Screw hiding behind the sheet rock got me good. Real deep.



This explains the rattling pipe sounds I would hear sometimes turning the water on and off.



That shower arm doesn't look too secure.

 

[vinny11950]

It's nice when the nails give up the wall in big chunks, makes it easier to remove.



Got it stripped down. Room looks so small



And the ceiling with sky light view. It needs a lot of structural work to beef it up.



I figure I am adding about 1,400 lbs of permanent material weight (counting cement board, sheet rock, tiles, mortar, fixtures, mud, etc.) so I am beefing up the studs and joists. I already sistered all the joists under the bathroom to handle the new weight.

 

[jeffesonm]

watching with interest... need to do the same soon

 

[Seasoned Oak]

Residential wiring is very simple ,but you still need to know what your doing. Im not a licensed electrician but iv been doing wiring for 35 years. Never had an accident or a fire. But i just do the houses i buy and rehab. Not for hire.

 

[semipro]

It looks like its a good time to consider:

• sound insulation in the walls (Roxul?),
  
• framing backers for towel racks and other things mounted on walls,
  
• insulating water pipes,
  
• access hatches for shower plumbing,
  
• etc.

 

[vinny11950]

Sorry for not responding earlier, but its been tough going. I keep tearing stuff out to make it right just so I don't have to go back to fix it later on with closed walls. And I am also fixing some roof framing issues and adding insulation now that it is easier to get to the attic through the sky light.

The electrician was here all day yesterday. I keep adding tasks for him do to, like fixing broken wires in the attic, replacing wires that were run tight over joists, and also putting the smaller bathroom also on its own circuit breaker. The issue has been untangling all the outlets from the bathroom runs. So the old wiring in the main bathroom shared the circuit with the master bedroom and part of the small bathroom too. So if the GFI tripped in the main bathroom the lights in the bedroom would go. All this mixed wiring makes upgrading to 12 gauge wire for 20 AMPs very time consuming being that he has to find the wires in the attic junction, separate them and then run 12 gauge wire for the 20 amp. I don't think he was expecting the wiring to be such a cluster in the attic. My bill it still going up.

 

[vinny11950]

It looks like its a good time to consider:

• sound insulation in the walls (Roxul?), - I want to do this, but I will have to do a lot of cutting to get it to fit between and around wires and pipes
  
• framing backers for towel racks and other things mounted on walls, - I am blocking the hell out of the walls. Adding grab bars too for the elderly parents.
  
• insulating water pipes, - Not sure if I want to insulate inside walls because if ever there is a leak tracing it would be difficult.
  
• access hatches for shower plumbing, - Is there a good brand of hatches to get or build your own?
  
• etc.

Thanks

 

[semipro]

Is there a good brand of hatches to get or build your own?
sound insulation in the walls (Roxul?), - I want to do this, but I will have to do a lot of cutting to get it to fit between and around wires and pipes

Home centers sell plastic access panels. Many make their own.
I think if you used something like Roxul you'd be amazed how easy (almost fun) it is to cut and install,, nothing like fiberglass.
Insulating cold water pipes prevents condensation and potential mold, I think an underrated consideration.

 

[vinny11950]

The electrical is done. It took 1.5 days and double the estimate because I kept adding to the work to make it right. He fixed a bunch of wires in the attic, cleaned up the runs, made them nice and neat. I also had him do another breaker and isolation of the small bath behind the main bath just so the 2 bathrooms are isolated. Since the back of the house was tied in to all these circuits it was a lot of work to get them separated with the right gauge for 20 amps. But I am happy.



Got the 6 inch can light from Home Depot, IC and airtite. They still looked a little drafty so I added some black RTV to make it better.



With the electricians out of the way, I went back to improving the insulation and structure in the attic / roof.

More Roxul and some strongbacks to support the ridge board.

Before:



After:



The radio and sports talk makes the work much better.

Also fixed a broken roof rafter:


Next up is redoing the PVC drain pipes and the vents because there is plenty to fix.

 

[semipro]

Re the blue electrical box in the first photo: are the romex cables attached (stapled) to the stud near the box? It doesn't appear so in the photo.

 

[DougA]

In my daughter's house, I had to add an outlet to her bathroom and 2 to the kitchen. All the kitchen outlets were on the same circuit as the entire main floor, so I had to bring everything from the main breaker which was located at the far end of the house. It was impossible to pull wires through the house. No basement in that section and going through the ceiling meant ripping up ceilings in 2 rooms, so I brought 6 gauge through pvc conduit outside that hid nicely just under the overhang, then to the far side of the house and put in a new sub panel. If you're going to do all that, might as well have a few empty spots for future such as a/c, etc.
I ended up spending well over 40 hours on the job plus $700 in material, all for a few outlets but that was the cheapest and pretty well only way to go. Wiring in older houses really sucks.

 

[vinny11950]

You are correct, Semipro. I told the electrician that I would secure them. Might still need to wiggle them a bit.

 

[vinny11950]

In my daughter's house, I had to add an outlet to her bathroom and 2 to the kitchen. All the kitchen outlets were on the same circuit as the entire main floor, so I had to bring everything from the main breaker which was located at the far end of the house. It was impossible to pull wires through the house. No basement in that section and going through the ceiling meant ripping up ceilings in 2 rooms, so I brought 6 gauge through pvc conduit outside that hid nicely just under the overhang, then to the far side of the house and put in a new sub panel. If you're going to do all that, might as well have a few empty spots for future such as a/c, etc.
I ended up spending well over 40 hours on the job plus $700 in material, all for a few outlets but that was the cheapest and pretty well only way to go. Wiring in older houses really sucks.

Yes, something simple opens up a bunch of work. I like your work around to your problem. That was smart.

Sometimes you have to think outside the box. I am noticing that in this house construction the electricians and plumbers did work when everything was open with easy access, but they ran wires and pipes in places that are not accessible once the sheet rock and insulation go up. Some of the wires were run so tight in the attic, I could barely nudge them.

 

[vinny11950]

In my fantasy world I would design my house to be 2 x6 walls all around, 2 x 12 floor joists to make plumbing easy and no flex in the floors. 9 foot ceilings, and a basement foundation 10 feet tall, at least 3 feet above ground for nice basement windows, with the walls waterproofed and insulated on the outside, drain pipe outside too, but with an added inside perimeter drain too. All doable when pouring the foundation. I can dream!!

 

[burnham]

Is this a licensed electrician? From the little I can see, he's not taking much pride in his work.

 

[vinny11950]

Is this a licensed electrician? From the little I can see, he's not taking much pride in his work.

What makes it suspect?

 

[DougA]

What makes it suspect?

I'm assuming you are putting a few staples in, etc. Apart from that, all I see is a very crowded box.
It's a bit sloppy but there are some electricians that will take longer so that everything looks picture perfect. The inspectors love that stuff because it's so easy to inspect and they know the electrician took their time. The downside is that time is money. Some will argue that it doesn't take any longer to do it perfect. I disagree and I think there is a difference between right and picture perfect. Once it's all done, it all gets covered, never to be seen again.
I prefer to get it done to code, make sure it's right and keep the difference in my pocket.

The last two guys I used in a commercial building (illegal for me to do it) padded the bill by hundreds and I called them on it. One billed for twice as much 6g than he used. Thought I wouldn't check.

 

[burnham]

What makes it suspect?

The wires all look crammed into the box. There are twists in the romex outside of the box. The romex isn't fastened to the stud very well. On the far left side of the box, it looks like two pieces of 12-2 are in the two-screw connector sideways, which makes them crushed not clamped (romex isn't designed to be stapled or clamped on the side). On the far left of the box it looks like two pieces of 12-2 are in the connector side-by-side, rather than stacked on top of one another. The wires aren't fastened to the stud very cleanly. They make a plastic romex stack that nails to the stud, and will take six or eight pieces of wire. I would have used one of those in this situation. I would have put the outlet at 44" above the sub floor, and the four gang at 48". Then the top box (thermostat?) at 5'.

To me, it all just looks very crude. I understand that it will be covered with sheet rock, but there's no reason to do the work neatly. It only takes a little more time to make something both look nice, and be easier for the next guy to work on in the future. If you can't do a good job quickly, well, you're not very good at your job. I've seen a lot of guys not care about how something looked behind the walls, Then come to find out their finished product doesn't look that great either. I don't mean to come off sounding like a jerk. You put the picture of his work out there, this is just my 2 cents. I asked if the guy was licensed because that work looked to me more like something a homeowner would do, or maybe a commercial electrician who had no residential experience had done it.

Again, this is none of my business, and it will probably work fine when everything is said and done.

 

[vinny11950]

Thanks for the advice, Burnham, I will bring it up to the electrician when he comes back. He is licensed and insured.

Also, you are not sounding like a jerk and I appreciate the time it took to write the explanation. Frankly, that is why I post the images, hoping that someone with more knowledge than me will comment and I will learn something.

 

[semipro]

Frankly, that is why I post the images, hoping that someone with more knowledge than me will comment and I will learn something.

And thanks to you Vinny for posting so we can all learn something.

 

[vinny11950]

Did more work this past week and the project keeps getting bigger just because it doesn't make sense to tackle the main bath renovation and not fix issues that are interconnected to it.

It rained hard yesterday, so I had to bring the cutting indoors to keep working. On the plus side, it's been warmer than usual on the east coast so the open ceiling is not as cold as it could be.

Decided to redo the back wall on the adjacent half bath too, just to make it easier and because I decided to change the studs that had been drilled through with holes too big, thereby weakening them.



Plumber got too excited with the hole saw.



This would not hold very well with the new, heavier tile. I could get big flex in the studs with a good push. Keep in mind you are allowed to drill up to 60% in center of non-load bearing wall studs, and 40% in center of load bearing wall studs. If you must go bigger on load bearing walls, you have to double up studs and can only do it to one stud sets, not continuous.

I doubled up the new studs and drilled a smaller hole for the 1 1/4 vent for the new 2" drain of the bathroom sink on the half bath. I am rerouting this drain to go into a different drain line below and making it bigger drain size, from 1 1/2" to 2". Note that I am going off code for this one vent to make the stud hole as small as possible. Code allows for vent size to be same drain pipe size or the next size down. In my case it should be 1 1/2 vent pipe size.



New, smaller holes on doubled up studs.

 

[Seasoned Oak]

You could always use one of those one way vent valves under the sink and eliminate the pipe run thru the studs altogether.

 

[vinny11950]

You could always use one of those one way vent valves under the sink and eliminate the pipe run thru the studs altogether.

I have never trusted those things.

But I am just about done with replacing all the PVC drain lines and fixtures, new vent lines too, through the attic. Had to open a wall to get at the kitchen line, but well worth it. Upgraded from 1.5 inch lines to 2 inch. Taking out the old lines, some of the joints just came apart with a pull.

I pretty much followed the old drain and vent setup but fixed a negative slope in the main line and replaced a couple of 3 inch sanitary tees that had been laid on their backs with wye combos. Had to redo some parts a couple of times because my dry fit measurements were off a bit, but getting it right is tough, especially if the fit is tighter than you thought. On the plus side, my soldering is getting better. I used the bread on the water line trick to solder with water in the pipes. Smelled like burnt toast!

 

[fbelec]

how is it going? you got a cheap price for electrical labor. the normal bath by code would be three new arc fault circuits. gfi outlet, heat and lights. anything new has to be on a arc fault circuit that's why 3 of them. if you went with the bulb type heater than 2 circuits would do seeing that the two bulb is five hundred watts or in floor electric would be about the same.just so you know if i were bidding on this without seeing this you are looking with all the stock $1800.00 more if i had to buy the in floor heat

 

[fbelec]

sorry didn't see your post before i started typing