How to clean an Englander 24-JC/sweep the flue

[slersner]

I've recently acquired my first house, and with it, my first wood burning stove. It's an Englander 24-JC, and has a catalytic converter. The chimney is in the center of my house, so from what I can tell, there is no easy cleanout door.

I am thinking that the catalytic converter needs to be removed, so that when I climb on the roof and brush the flue, the creosote will be able to fall into the firebox, then I can scoop it out. I've looked up the manual online, but I can't really find any directions on cleaning past how to actually get to the cat converter. I can probably figure out how to remove it, but I'm not sure if that would be the best option.

I'm thinking it would be best to just hire a professional chimney sweep to come and do my first cleaning and show me the best way to clean my particular stove/flue. Is teaching the homeowner how to clean the flue themselves something that a chimney sweep would normally do? Should I expect to pay a little extra to be taught how to do it myself?

I'm also considering texting the previous owner to ask if they have any tips, but I try to avoid disturbing him.

I appreciate any and all advice!

 

[slersner]

In case it helps someone help me, I pulled this faceplate thing off so I could see how the stove connects to the flue



If I were to just sweep the flue, then I'd expect any creosote to make it down that slight bend and then build up on the cat converter.

Pretty sure I just need to take the cat converter out of my stove as part of cleaning the flue? It did not look like it would be easy to disconnect the flue from the stove back there.

 

[bholler]

In case it helps someone help me, I pulled this faceplate thing off so I could see how the stove connects to the flue

View attachment 270766 View attachment 270767

If I were to just sweep the flue, then I'd expect any creosote to make it down that slight bend and then build up on the cat converter.

Pretty sure I just need to take the cat converter out of my stove as part of cleaning the flue? It did not look like it would be easy to disconnect the flue from the stove back there.

That liner hookup is not correct at all. You can't use black pipe to hookup an insert. That looks like fiberglass insulation stuffed in the joint. The creosote flakes ontop of the stove make me think the flue was not cleaned properly. And several other issues

 

[slersner]

That liner hookup is not correct at all. You can't use black pipe to hookup an insert. That looks like fiberglass insulation stuffed in the joint. The creosote flakes ontop of the stove make me think the flue was not cleaned properly. And several other issues

So that makes me want to get a professional out here ASAP haha. However, I think I may have just done a bad job taking pictures.

The previous owner was generally very good about doing things the right way from what I've noticed.

The black pipe is part of the insert I believe. It connects to what looks like a stainless flex pipe which you can see just above the pink in the picture. The pink is not actually fiberglass insulation, at least not the fluffy stuff that goes in walls - it is hard, so maybe it is hardened fiberglass like the stuff boats are made of?

The creosote flakes onto of the stove did seem odd to me though.

It looks like you are a chimney sweep yourself? My main questions were: Is teaching the homeowner how to clean the flue themselves something that a chimney sweep would normally do? Should I expect to pay a little extra to be taught how to do it myself?

 

[bholler]

So that makes me want to get a professional out here ASAP haha. However, I think I may have just done a bad job taking pictures.

The previous owner was generally very good about doing things the right way from what I've noticed.

The black pipe is part of the insert I believe. It connects to what looks like a stainless flex pipe which you can see just above the pink in the picture. The pink is not actually fiberglass insulation, at least not the fluffy stuff that goes in walls - it is hard, so maybe it is hardened fiberglass like the stuff boats are made of?

The creosote flakes onto of the stove did seem odd to me though.

It looks like you are a chimney sweep yourself? My main questions were: Is teaching the homeowner how to clean the flue themselves something that a chimney sweep would normally do? Should I expect to pay a little extra to be taught how to do it myself?

View attachment 270775 View attachment 270776

Ok so in that pic I can see it isn't fiberglass. It is burnt hightemp silicone. That doesn't belong there. The black pipe is a standard steel adjustable stove pipe elbow. That doesn't belong there. The stainless fitting above the black elbow looks like it is upside down and isn't the correct type for your liner. The liner looks like it is uninsulated. And there is no block off plate.

And yes some sweeps will tell you what to do

 

[slersner]

Ok so in that pic I can see it isn't fiberglass. It is burnt hightemp silicone. That doesn't belong there. The black pipe is a standard steel adjustable stove pipe elbow. That doesn't belong there. The stainless fitting above the black elbow looks like it is upside down and isn't the correct type for your liner. The liner looks like it is uninsulated. And there is no block off plate.

And yes some sweeps will tell you what to do

Awesome, thanks for the feedback! I'll start looking for a CSIA certified chimney sweep(It seems like this is the certification that I should expect from an expert?) in my area to come take a look at this to see what was done wrong, and hopefully teach me how to clean it properly!

 

[bholler]

Awesome, thanks for the feedback! I'll start looking for a CSIA certified chimney sweep(It seems like this is the certification that I should expect from an expert?) in my area to come take a look at this to see what was done wrong, and hopefully teach me how to clean it properly!

Csia is a good start but some certified guys aren't great and some uncertified guys are. I would try asking around a bit as well to get references

 

[slersner]

Ok so in that pic I can see it isn't fiberglass. It is burnt hightemp silicone. That doesn't belong there. The black pipe is a standard steel adjustable stove pipe elbow. That doesn't belong there. The stainless fitting above the black elbow looks like it is upside down and isn't the correct type for your liner. The liner looks like it is uninsulated. And there is no block off plate.

And yes some sweeps will tell you what to do

How bad would all these issues be?

I'm generally a curious person, always wondering why, so I'm wondering what the right way of doing all this would be, and how big of an issue these things really are. That stainless steel elbow looks like it belongs there, but you say it doesn't- why?

I read the owners manual again to see if it mentioned not using an elbow there, or the need for a block off plate, and it does not appear that they are mentioned. Is there a resource(somewhere on here maybe?) That goes over all this stuff?

I definitely plan on having a pro come out to check it out, I already tried calling one actually. I'm also thinking it would be beneficial to know what you(or some online guide/general consensus) think should be done differently, why, and how much it matters, so I can compare that to what the local sweep says.

 

[bholler]

That stainless steel elbow looks like it belongs there, but you say it doesn't- why?

Because it isn't stainless it is just steel. It needs to be stainless because it is concealed.

read the owners manual again to see if it mentioned not using an elbow there, or the need for a block off plate, and it does not appear that they are mentioned. Is there a resource(somewhere on here maybe?) That goes over all this stuff?

Using an elbow is fine if it is stainless and if it is installed properly.

A block off plate is not required by code or for safety. But if you want the heat in your house not up the chimney it is very helpful.

definitely plan on having a pro come out to check it out, I already tried calling one actually. I'm also thinking it would be beneficial to know what you(or some online guide/general consensus) think should be done differently, why, and how much it matters, so I can compare that to what the local sweep says.

The connection to the insert needs to be done with the proper type of stainless connectors installed properly.

The old flue needs to be checked to see if it was cleaned properly.

You need to find out if that liner is insulated. If not it needs to be pulled and insulated.

A block off plate is not required but is definitely very benificial.

 

[slersner]

Because it isn't stainless it is just steel. It needs to be stainless because it is concealed.
Using an elbow is fine if it is stainless and if it is installed properly.

A block off plate is not required by code or for safety. But if you want the heat in your house not up the chimney it is very helpful.


The connection to the insert needs to be done with the proper type of stainless connectors installed properly.

The old flue needs to be checked to see if it was cleaned properly.

You need to find out if that liner is insulated. If not it needs to be pulled and insulated.

A block off plate is not required but is definitely very benificial.

That additional detail helps out SO much! I really appreciate your time, thank you for the info!

I'll definitely do some research to try to find a chimney sweep with good reviews and I'll ensure they will be able to make these adjustments and improvements for me(or do it myself, I can probably figure out how to mount a block off plate), in addition to teaching me the best way to clean my particular flue/stove combo.

I'm still curious if I was right about having to remove the cat converter to clean it, but I can wait until I get a chimney sweep here to find that out haha

 

[bholler]

That additional detail helps out SO much! I really appreciate your time, thank you for the info!

I'll definitely do some research to try to find a chimney sweep with good reviews and I'll ensure they will be able to make these adjustments and improvements for me(or do it myself, I can probably figure out how to mount a block off plate), in addition to teaching me the best way to clean my particular flue/stove combo.

I'm still curious if I was right about having to remove the cat converter to clean it, but I can wait until I get a chimney sweep here to find that out haha

I don't know that particular stove. I would just have to figure it out as I went along if I was working on it

 

[logfarmer]

Slersner I basically have the same stove but mine is a free standing stove vs insert! Once you get that thing burning, let me know how it does. On mine I had to flip the air intake 180 for it to burn everything inside. The way yours is now(to the right) mine would not burn anything down the right side of the firebox, like there was zero air going down the side! Was so bad the creosote would build up on the door and literally run down the door and would build up on the edge of the gasket! Since I flipped it over it no longer does that and I’m burning 15% wood moisture. With mine flipped over it burns completely across very well!

 

[slersner]

Slersner I basically have the same stove but mine is a free standing stove vs insert! Once you get that thing burning, let me know how it does. On mine I had to flip the air intake 180 for it to burn everything inside. The way yours is now(to the right) mine would not burn anything down the right side of the firebox, like there was zero air going down the side! Was so bad the creosote would build up on the door and literally run down the door and would build up on the edge of the gasket! Since I flipped it over it no longer does that and I’m burning 15% wood moisture. With mine flipped over it burns completely across very well!

I've been using it here and there since the previous owner had used it for years and the home inspector didn't say there was anything wrong, though I don't think he removed the faceplate to see how the flue connects.

You're talking about the slide damper above the door which allows in more/less air? On mine, having it to the left is all the way open and if I go much further to the right than where it is in that picture, then there is too little air for the fire.

I havent had any issues with anything not burning. If I cut off the air supply too much then it dies down, but I can play with the left 3/4s of that dampers movement to adjust the flame size.

I haven't figured out if it's best to load wood north to south or east to west in this stove, can't find any recommendation in the manual and from what I can tell it doesn't seem to matter.

I do scrub the glass every few days to keep it nice and perfect. Doesn't take long to use some ash to scrub it clean.

 

[logfarmer]

Yes I’m talking about the air damper! I flipped mine to the other side of the stove so it is by the door handle(take 4 screws out and flip over). I can run mine a little lower than you have in the pic, I put a thermometer above where the cat is so I know when it “lights off”! Since I’ve flipped air damper I no longer clean the glass, it stays fairly clean now. I load both ways(north/south East/west), east/west will slow the burn down some to burn at a cooler temp for me or I should say it slows it down on the climbing temp. I have zero smoke out of the chimney no smell just a little water vapor is all. I want to order a cat probe but haven’t yet. It’s a good stove heats very well for me and is the heaviest stove I’ve had at the farm yet. You will not find much info on these stoves. There is a member on here that works for englander maybe he will chime in for a minute. Good luck

 

[slersner]

I'm gonna ask the service man that comes about getting a thermometer or two installed as well, I've just been winging it when it feels right, and going outside to look at the smoke a bunch. I don't think I've very good at it, and its high effort. Been wanting one since I first read the manual on how to start a fire in it.

I didn't realize it could be flipped, I might have to look into that as well if it keeps the glass cleaner. Got any pics of it that way? Thanks for the tip!

 

[logfarmer]

I'm gonna ask the service man that comes about getting a thermometer or two installed as well, I've just been winging it when it feels right, and going outside to look at the smoke a bunch. I don't think I've very good at it, and its high effort. Been wanting one since I first read the manual on how to start a fire in it.

I didn't realize it could be flipped, I might have to look into that as well if it keeps the glass cleaner. Got any pics of it that way? Thanks for the tip!

When I get home I will get a pic for you! If what I did is right or wrong, I don’t know but it is burning better.

 

[logfarmer]

Got I picture for you slersner!

 

[slersner]

Got I picture for you slersner!View attachment 270886

Thanks! Thats interesting, I took a look at mine too and it looks like its just a couple bolts to remove that piece. The top of your stove looks different and I think I might see a rod to adjust something on the bottom that mine doesn't have either. Weird.

 

[slersner]

You need to find out if that liner is insulated. If not it needs to be pulled and insulated.

The Chimney Sweep I just spoke with said that insulated liners were an old recommendation which has since changed. I even pointed out to him that it was an interior chimney.

Are insulated liners necessary for certain installations, or are they optional?

 

[slersner]

The Chimney Sweep I just spoke with said that insulated liners were an old recommendation which has since changed. I even pointed out to him that it was an interior chimney.

Are insulated liners necessary for certain installations, or are they optional?

I was doing some googling and reading, and found this thread where it seems this debate took place: Liners may be necessary for code, but it seems like there was no research done to confirm if they actually offer the benefits that are claimed.

I don't think my liner is insulated, and I'm not sure if thats a big deal?

• the chimney sweep I called said an insulated liner is unnecessary
• my research makes it seem like an insulated liner is not necessary
• https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads...nsulate-liner-is-a-reducer-a-bad-idea.124124/ had evenly split results on if a liner is necessary for an exterior chimney, which is where it sounds like insulation would be more beneficial
• the previous owner took care to do everything else right from what I've seen. If an insulated liner is necessary, it will be the first corner that he has cut that I have discovered in the 9 months I've lived here.

 

[bholler]

The Chimney Sweep I just spoke with said that insulated liners were an old recommendation which has since changed. I even pointed out to him that it was an interior chimney.

Are insulated liners necessary for certain installations, or are they optional?

It is not an old recommendation at all. You have an interior chimney so to meet minimum safety standards you either need 2" clearance to combustibles from the outside of the chimney. Or you need an insulated liner. That has been code since the mid 80s and still is. And yes this has absolutely been tested and confirmed that heat transfer without those clearances can ignite adjacent combustible materials.

I would ask your sweep to cite the change in R1003.18 that now no longer require clearances or a lining material rated for zero clearance. He will not be able to because that change has not been made.

 

[bholler]

I was doing some googling and reading, and found this thread where it seems this debate took place: Liners may be necessary for code, but it seems like there was no research done to confirm if they actually offer the benefits that are claimed.

I don't think my liner is insulated, and I'm not sure if thats a big deal?

• the chimney sweep I called said an insulated liner is unnecessary
• my research makes it seem like an insulated liner is not necessary
• https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads...nsulate-liner-is-a-reducer-a-bad-idea.124124/ had evenly split results on if a liner is necessary for an exterior chimney, which is where it sounds like insulation would be more beneficial
• the previous owner took care to do everything else right from what I've seen. If an insulated liner is necessary, it will be the first corner that he has cut that I have discovered in the 9 months I've lived here.

Here is a link to the actual codes. Not an opinion poll voted on by anyone reading it trained or not. I can see atleast 3 corners cut in your picture.

CHAPTER 10 CHIMNEYS AND FIREPLACES - 2015 INTERNATIONAL RESIDENTIAL CODE (IRC)

ICC Digital Codes is the largest provider of model codes, custom codes and standards used worldwide to construct safe, sustainable, affordable and resilient structures.

codes.iccsafe.org

 

[logfarmer]

Thanks! Thats interesting, I took a look at mine too and it looks like its just a couple bolts to remove that piece. The top of your stove looks different and I think I might see a rod to adjust something on the bottom that mine doesn't have either. Weird.

Sorry that is my fire poker sitting on the base lol. Yours is the insert so it might have a little bit different look but operates similar.

 

[slersner]

Here is a link to the actual codes. Not an opinion poll voted on by anyone reading it trained or not. I can see atleast 3 corners cut in your picture.

CHAPTER 10 CHIMNEYS AND FIREPLACES - 2015 INTERNATIONAL RESIDENTIAL CODE (IRC)

ICC Digital Codes is the largest provider of model codes, custom codes and standards used worldwide to construct safe, sustainable, affordable and resilient structures.

codes.iccsafe.org

Thank you again for the references. I asked the local chimney sweep that I called why he said that insulated liners used to be recommended but not anymore... waiting for a response.

I also checked the pictures I took of the permits before buying the house, and noticed that there is no permit for the wood burning stove insert, like I think there probably should be. Just mention of a fireplace. Pretty sure the previous owner must have had this installed, or installed it himself, without making sure everything was up to code.

Now I just need to figure out how the hell to find a good chimney sweep that is aware of the various codes and ways things should be done, since the first one I called that had good reviews appears to be oblivious

 

[slersner]

All the chimney sweeps I'm finding are telling me that I just need a stainless liner, it does not need to be insulated, on the phone. This last one I reference the building code, and he explained that the masonry on almost all chimneys are 8 inches thick, and therefor insulation is not necessary.

I thought they would all be telling me it should be insulated so they could get paid to install it.

I have no clue how to tell if anyone knows what they are actually talking about, and even less of an idea of how to find that person in the first place. There are only a few chimney sweeps in my area and they all seem to agree that insulation is not necessary in most installations.