I don't get it...

[Bret Chase]

My sister and brother in law are having a small, brand new house being built down the street from me. Small as in the entire footprint would fit within the area of my kitchen, dining room and bathroom (1865 farm house). Anyways, it is being built to to code (Maine Uniform Building and Energy Code), which requires r50+ in the ceilings, r23+ in the walls, the r value for the basement depends on where the insulation is put.

They've got minisplits for heat/ cooling with electric baseboards for emergency heat, and a 5.5kW grid tied PV array. This is all well and good for 95% of the time.... Buuuuut... that 5% of the time is the dead of winter when the power goes out. My Bil told me that his PV shuts down w/ mains power.

He kinda stared at me blankly when I asked him how's he going to keep my niece warm when power is lost.

That's the part I don't get.... We lose power from time to time in the winter, that's a fact of life. Their house is critically tied to the grid in the name of energy efficiency, mine is not. If they lose power they're screwed, with no backup heat in the house.

If I lose power, life goes on... I've still got heat, cold water, and can cook on either the wood stove or on my gas range. If they lose power.... I've got 3 house guests.

Why are houses being built like this?

 

[Babaganoosh]

That is kinda stupid. Backup genny?

 

[Bret Chase]

nope, literally zero backup

 

[drz1050]

Stupid to not have any backup, especially when you live in a place like that.

With all that insulation it'll take a couple days for the house to cool down all the way at least.. but still.

 

[Bret Chase]

I think I've got him talked into getting a small LPG catalytic wall mounted direct vent heaters as a back up, as they will have a gas cooktop... I think part of their problem is they spent all their money in the kitchen and on the minisplits... and as first time home owners... backup heat didn't enter their mind.

 

[drz1050]

If they have a gas stove, they can use that as heat in a pinch... I've done it before in an old house when power went out..

Thought you meant they had an electric range too.

 

[Circus]

If they're buttoned up like you say, they'll be fine.

 

[Bret Chase]

They don't have a gas stove... like I said, they spent their money in the kitchen... gas cook top, electric wall mount double ovens. It would not surprise me if the cook top doesn't have an NFPA electric gas valve in it.

I do wonder however wonder, what it would take to reconfigure their PV system to auto disconnect from mains and remain online through a power outage. It would kill me to have spent the $$ on a PV system to have it just *shut off* when I needed it the most.

 

[Bret Chase]

If they're buttoned up like you say, they'll be fine.

they may be.... they might not. Our houses are just about 3 miles from the Atlantic ocean... In Feb, -15F and a 40MPH wind is not all that uncommon. They are also in the middle of a field with no trees more than 30' tall within 500' to block the wind. I am on the opposite side of the road, with a nice tight row of 70'+ pines 250' from my house, shielding me from the easterly wind.

It is amazing when you compare at how farmsteads were set up in the 19th century, and where houses now are placed. Houses now are basically dropped on the lot where they fit. My old house and it's attached El and Barn are over 100' long, running almost due north/south. This alignment uses the house as a wind break for the more constant westerly winds... and the large trees to deflect and divert the more brutal easterly storm winds coming off the water.

I *wish* I had the money to drop a PV system on the 900sq ft southern facing half of the barn roof....

 

[woodgeek]

I think the LPG wall heater sounds like a good backup solution to me.

And a gasoline genny is a lot cheaper and more versatile than trying to island the PV system for 4 hours of juice per day (in the winter).

 

[STIHLY DAN]

We just went 2 days without power 5 pm wed thru 10 pm Friday. Not a big deal at all to me, because I made sure to be ready. Its amazing how many people were walking around complaining how cold, hungry, and worried about pipes freezing. We live in the north east, power outages just go with the territory. If anyone hasn't made provisions for outages, they are foolish and deserve what they get.

 

[begreen]

Experience is a great teacher.

 

[hossthehermit]

If they lose power.... I've got 3 house guests.

Sounds to me like they DO have a backup plan ......................

 

[NE WOOD BURNER]

Sounds like a nice "housewarming" gift for your sister would be a neighborly thing to give! Maybe a nice generator?

 

[becasunshine]

It has been a long time since we looked at this, although it's a possibility for the future in our remote location, but. As I understood it when we last looked at it, we had two discreet choices for PV systems: 1. Grid tied, 2. Stand alone. There wasn't an option as far as I know to "disconnect" from the grid if you were grid tied. If you are grid tied and the grid goes down, you are out of power too. As far as I knew, if your PV system was stand alone, then your entire household was off grid. There's a way to disconnect? I'm truly interested!

 

[Bret Chase]

Sounds like a nice "housewarming" gift for your sister would be a neighborly thing to give! Maybe a nice generator?

yeah, um... no.

 

[Bret Chase]

Sounds to me like they DO have a backup plan ......................

if it is, it's a crappy plan... as I don't fix frozen plumbing for free....

 

[Grisu]

There's a way to disconnect? I'm truly interested!

Had the same thoughts until I read a bit more about it. Without a battery backup it won't be of much use. One cloud in front of the sun and your power just goes off again. You will have a hard time without some form of "stabilizer" in between.

 

[NE WOOD BURNER]

Well, they could get a generator that can just power the mini split for now. or rent one insurance should pick it up. They should put in a generator switch though so they will have it hooked correctly if the need arises.

 

[Knots]

Experience is a great teacher.

This. The first time they're in the dark, cold Maine night with no way to stay warm, it'll concentrate their thinking. My Dad bought a wood stove in CT after the blizzard of '78.

Actually, there's no guarantee. I know some people who get through a crisis, and don't prepare for it to happen again - they just believe that it WON'T happen again..

 

[firefighterjake]

This. The first time they're in the dark, cold Maine night with no way to stay warm, it'll concentrate their thinking. My Dad bought a wood stove in CT after the blizzard of '78.

Actually, there's no guarantee. I know some people who get through a crisis, and don't prepare for it to happen again - they just believe that it WON'T happen again..

I remember folks buying generators after the 1998 ice storm left so many folks in Maine without power for days ... and then returning the generators a few days later when their power was restored ... as you say some folks just think it will not happen again.

Experience being a good teacher ... I learned ... before it was never a big deal to lose power since it was always just a few hours, not days ... I kept the generator and started thinking about a woodstove ... it did take the high heating oil prices in 2008 though to give me the final push to get the stove.

 

[Knots]

I remember folks buying generators after the 1998 ice storm left so many folks in Maine without power for days ... and then returning the generators a few days later when their power was restored ...

I was wondering why more people didn't have generators since so many get bought prior to storms. Then I found out that they get returned afterwards. Blew my mind...

I've got an 11kw propane generator, a small gas generator, and a wood stove. I won't sleep good until I have enough wood put up to deal with this:

http://www.erh.noaa.gov/car/Newsletter/htm_format_articles/climate_corner/yearwithoutsummer_lf.htm

 

[BrotherBart]

Most stores around here have it posted that gennys can't be returned. Exactly because of past practices.

 

[Bret Chase]

I remember folks buying generators after the 1998 ice storm left so many folks in Maine without power for days ... and then returning the generators a few days later when their power was restored ... as you say some folks just think it will not happen again.

I fortunately (for me) missed the ice storm of '98... I was working for the commerce dept in SE Kentucky at the time.

I've never bought a genny because I had access to 3 at my old job.... now that it's my *old* job.... I probably should go out and buy one, lol In the meantime however, I do have my homestead setup to be completely liveable with no power... My teens may disagree though...

 

[firefighterjake]

I fortunately (for me) missed the ice storm of '98... I was working for the commerce dept in SE Kentucky at the time.

I've never bought a genny because I had access to 3 at my old job.... now that it's my *old* job.... I probably should go out and buy one, lol In the meantime however, I do have my homestead setup to be completely liveable with no power... My teens may disagree though...

Sounds like you're fine with or without a generator . . . incidentally . . . you didn't miss much back in 1998. We were without power for 14 days -- although I was down at the Fire Academy in Emmitsburg, MD for about half of that time, leaving my wife behind to man the generator.