I know that I am not tech savy,but how do you burn less with a EPA??

[RedRanger]

Okay, most of you tech guys know who I am by now. I just still can`t figure out how the secondary burn etc. is so much better?Mostly, what I am concerned about is the claim about burning approx. 33% less wood per season. I have read lots of stuff about the newer EPA certified inserts, and the complaints also. One of them being less control over being able to turn it down. ie-restricting the air supply like you could with ones like mine. So the new ones burn hotter, but with less control by the operator, and they pollute less because of the secondary burn. I can understand the less pollution tech stuff. But I can`t understand how they will reduce my fuel consumption. As some of you know, I started that Dragon Thread to stir the pot a bit-and hey, no regrets. However, I am not going to chuck my old dragon with low mileage just yet. Can someone explain "without too much technical jargon" how the lower fuel comsumption is achieved. As I have stated before, I`m a country guy, and won`t buy the new stuff just for the lower grams per hour crap. Being retired though, and ageing rapidly-like most of you other old----, I might consider an upgrade just to be bucking and splitting less wood every year. THAT WOULD BE THE BIGGEST MOTIVATOR.. Not just for me,but probably for lots of others on here with the "smokin dragons". So, MOD`S and others with vested interests or not, maybe a new thread on this . In the meantime, please, try and explain to me how I will burn 33% less wood. I just can`t figure how if it burns hotter to pollute less, how I am going to burn less fuel? And please-no comments about being dumber than the stack of wood that I just brought in to the house-lol

 

[Creek-Chub]

I'm not an old fart quite yet, and am far from an expert about this stuff, but my limited understanding is that the newer EPA stoves somehow burn the smoke that your old smoke dragon is sending out the chimney. That smoke gets turned into heat, and you end up sticking less wood into the beast to get the same amount of heat. I'm sure someone with more knowledge will pipe up to explain it further - and if I'm off base, I hope they'll correct me.

 

[babalu87]

I a word ( well a few) its more EFFICIENT. When a car/truck is more efficient it burns LESS FUEL
A more efficient stove burns LESS FUEL

 

[begreen]

I have no idea if you would burn 33% less wood and don't know where the 33% came from. Depending on the current stove one is burning, YMMV. Some older stoves were relatively efficient. The efficiency varies from stove to stove. Same with older pre-EPA stoves.

This is not rocket science. The additional heat comes from burning the unburnt gases a smoke dragon allows to pass up the stack. That is why it burns cleaner and puts out more heat for a given load of wood.

 

[DriftWood]

The new EPA stoves burn more of the wood you put into the fire box {more heat} and send less unburnt wood (smoke) out of the stack. More heat from less wood burnt = EPA stoves use less wood for same heat as pre epa stoves.

 

[RedRanger]

Pyro Maniac: Wow what an answer,,Boy, sure learned a lot from you? Like for eg. lliving in the country, a hybrid car, gets me zilch less milage, cause they really only come into effect in the city,you know stop and go driving. Oh well, at least you weren`t sarcastic!! Hybrids for city people, pickups for the rest of us-lol So we can scrounge our own wood. And oh yea, I drive a Mazda B2200 4 banger pu. best milage you can get for a pu. So I am not a polluting selfish, drive the big V8 type of person, just so I can bully others off the road. Just looking for common sense answer to why-at the age of 62-I should invest in something that I already know there will never be a payback. Unless, it`s less bucking and splitting. Seriously, do the math, saving about $200 a year for wood supply would take me about 15 years to break even. :sick: If I should be so lucky to live that long.

 

[precaud]

I have read lots of stuff about the newer EPA certified inserts, and the complaints also. One of them being less control over being able to turn it down. ie-restricting the air supply like you could with ones like mine.

If you're really concerned about that, modify the air controls so they can be shut off completely. I do it to every stove that I get. And
unless you like the idea of polluting the atmosphere you live in, don't even consider anything but an EPA stove.

 

[Corey]

The burning of the smoke is one big factor, I think the EPA stoves also use combustion air more wisely. A pre EPA stove would not be uncommon to see an 8" flue, because the air just entered the firebox, burned some wood, then went up the flue. Some leaked around the doors, some around the ash pan, etc. In an EPA stove, the air is routed to specific channels for primary burn, secondary burn, window air wash, etc. Most EPA stoves use a 6" flue size which is actually about 45% less cross sectional area than the 8". So all else being equal, you would expect it to pull about 45% less air out of your house.

 

[DriftWood]

If I should be so lucky to live that long.

You are breathing the air that dragion is smoking out. It will keep smoking , will you keep breathing it in, your choice. but how long....

 

[Highbeam]

Don't worry about those last few years, those are the "wheelchair years" and well, you know, they might not be the best.

 

[begreen]

Pyro Maniac: Wow what an answer,,Boy, sure learned a lot from you? Like for eg. lliving in the country, a hybrid car, gets me zilch less milage, cause they really only come into effect in the city,you know stop and go driving. Oh well, at least you weren`t sarcastic!! Hybrids for city people, pickups for the rest of us-lol So we can scrounge our own wood. And oh yea, I drive a Mazda B2200 4 banger pu. best milage you can get for a pu. So I am not a polluting selfish, drive the big V8 type of person, just so I can bully others off the road. Just looking for common sense answer to why-at the age of 62-I should invest in something that I already know there will never be a payback. Unless, it`s less bucking and splitting. Seriously, do the math, saving about $200 a year for wood supply would take me about 15 years to break even. :sick: If I should be so lucky to live that long.

FYI, now that you brought it up, I have a hybrid, in hilly country, lots of short trips. Also have a Ford Ranger 4 banger (aka Mazda B2300). The hybrid is getting double the gas mileage of the Ranger or my wife's Honda doing the same driving. Averaging 45 mpg on short trips, 55 on the highway. And without any effort on my part.

But you have a decent older stove. All it needed was to be run the way PE designed it. Like I said, YMMV.

 

[builderbob]

Like I said, YMMV.

Dumb as a doornail I may be, but what is "YMMV"?

 

[begreen]

your mileage may vary

 

[RedRanger]

Oh, master of fire guy-hmmm. yes should have mentioned that I had my flue relined 3 years ago with SS liner. Also a new baffle last week. I`m not an idiot when it comes to wood heat. Our old place had a Droulet Stove in the basement, and a PE upstairs.And all we used at that time was wood. Anyway, everything is up to code here. Maybe, just maybe, tonite, I will do the proper stack thing and see if we get close to an overnite burn. I know that we used to with the old Droulet wood stove, but man-oh-man the cresote buildup was something else. So far, never even any thing nasty like that with my low milage PE insert. Oh, the liner, lots of draw, about 22 ft.but only 5inch diameter steel, the flue was 12x6 inches. rectangular, so a 6" wouldn`t cut it. :blank: Sometimes I think that there might be too many people selling the new tech on this forum, and they have forgotten that when they sold me my insert way back in 85 when they said this thing will be "good for a lifetime"-well maybe they didn`t consider that some of us would be around for a lifetime.lol I still love my PE with less than 30 cords burned and ain`t about to contribute to the over flowing trash piles just yet.

 

[RedRanger]

previous post--referring to precaud.. no doubt means precaution--lol but about that Droulet, I can remember taking down the 45 degree stove pipe leading into the chimney, taking it outside, and shaking it and the hard caked creasote droping to the ground, and this only after about 45 days of burn. Got to say though, that sucker was still hot and had coals in the morning after a 12 hour burn. Thinking of weekends, I guess, when I could sleep in.lol But boy did that thing attract the creasote, specially on the shut down-slow burn cycle/ Tonnes of creasote. But there you go, my present "dragon doesn`t do that"--Once a year clean the chimney thing, and not much to chow about there. Enjoy the rest of the long weekend guys,

 

[jpl1nh]

Sonny, I think your point of being skeptical about a 33% return is well founded. However you will have some return. Given that your a knowledgeable wood burner with the PE you have, you've already improved your efficiency over many burners. To burn pre-EPA stoves hot for good burns you need good air supply. As Cozy Heat pointed out, older stoves typically used more air, not only more cold air being pulled into your house (assuming you weren't hooked to an outside air supply) but more of that hot air going up the chimney as well as more unburned flue gas. While you may not be in complete control of incoming air, especially with secondary burn systems, today's stoves distribute air in the fire box much better than most pre-EPAs so they can achieve a more complete burn with less air. They are more idiot proof so they work for more people. Since non of us here are idiots, that's irrelevant, right? I switched from a cast stove that heated my house really well ( but produced tons of creosote on slow burns) to a cat-soapstone stove. It was a stove that given the opportunity financially I would have loved to have. I found one used, that after new connection pipe, a few gaskets and a bi-pass door, and after selling my old stove, cost me $450.00, not the $2500 it would have set me back new. Otherwise I wouldn't have switched. How much wood will I save? I'll let you know in a year or two. I'd keep burning your PE, it was designed to last a lifetime right? Use it intelligently and it might cost you half a cord or so more a year, as Be Green says YMMV. If you come across a deal too good to pass up, take advantage of it.

 

[Gooserider]

Many others have attempted to explain how the economy works to save you wood. Essentially with an EPA stove you burn the smoke and combustion gasses, which are a good bit of the heat energy in the wood. Since you are burning the smoke and turning it into heat, rather than sending it up the chimney, you don't have to put as many splits in to get the same heat out.

Some people WON'T see the 33% wood savings - that number is an estimate that you need to burn that many fewer BTU's worth of splits to get the same amount of heat out of the stove. A lot of people will find that they can keep warmer when burning the same amount of wood and won't exercise the discipline it takes to keep the thermometer at the same setting in order to save on the wood.

I found my experience to be a significant savings. I played musical stoves this summer, the stove I had been heating with (#2 in my sig) got moved to the basement where it will see very little use - the hearth it is now sitting on was empty for many years. I replaced it with a VC Encore cat. - approximately the same heating capacity, but primarily a radiant heater as opposed to a convection heater like the Pro-Former was.

The Pro-former is a classic smoke dragon, I would say it needs cleaning at least a couple times a season. Most any time I looked at the stack it was smoking pretty heavily. I haven't run the Encore long enough yet to see what it will need for cleaning, but I suspect a lot less. Every time I've looked at the stack, I'm putting out little or no smoke.

But what about the wood consumption?

I don't have exact measurments, but the PFZ took a 24" log, and if I filled my wood cart I would get about a day and a halfs worth of wood per load. I had to fill the stove about 4-5 times a day. I burned about 6.5 cords last year.

This year, I've been burning the Encore 24/7 all month, and I'll probably hit about 0.6 cords by the end of the month. My log length has gone from 24" to 18", so that my woodshed now holds 5 rows across instead of 4. Filling my log cart with the same number of splits (but shorter ones) I'm now getting about 2.5 days a load, sometimes three.

I'm filling the stove two to three times a day. My typical burn times have gone from 5-6 hours to 8-10 hours, often longer.

The GF and I both feel like we are getting a little bit more warmth out of the stove - just a degree or two, but perceptible. More significantly, the temperature is more even throughout the house....

Like you, I'd had my doubts about switching stoves. Our wood costs weren't high enough to justify the expense of a new stove especially since I didn't really believe the 33% savings number. Now I think that number is possibly on the conservative side, and am really glad I switched.

Gooserider

 

[precaud]

previous post--referring to precaud.. no doubt means precaution--

Ummm... no, it doesn't...

 

[jjbaer]

a hybrid car, gets me zilch less milage, cause they really only come into effect in the city,you know stop and go driving. Oh well, at least you weren`t sarcastic!! Hybrids for city people, pickups for the rest of us-lol .

I guess we don't understand this......a B2200 gets about 22-24 MPG and the hybrid has got to be getting a LOT better MPG, doesn't it??

 

[RedRanger]

First my little pickup gets 30 MPG-and second, how much wood can you pack in a hybrid car? Here is some good news for you pro EPA guys. I was outside getting wood in yesterday and looked at my chimney and hey "no visible smoke" all I could see was heat rising out of the top(looked like the heat coming off pavment on a hot day). And my insert was turned most of the way down. Another thing, since installing that 3/8 steel baffle, I haven`t had dirty glass on the door either. Honestly, I think the fact that my SS liner is 22ft and only 5inch dia. is also a big plus. So ya see guys, "I actually have a smokeless dragon 1985 model :lol:

 

[BrotherBart]

So ya see guys, "I actually have a smokeless dragon 1985 model :lol:

I had a 1985 smokeless dragon myself until the firebox cracked last year.

Keep it. Burn it. What is da big deal, eh? Somebody been trying to sell ya a new stove or something, eh? The people here try to get people who are going to be buying a stove anyway to buy an EPA certified stove instead of an older one. Nothing wrong with that.

BB - Another hard headed old fart

 

[colsmith]

Like for eg. lliving in the country, a hybrid car, gets me zilch less milage, cause they really only come into effect in the city,you know stop and go driving. Oh well, at least you weren`t sarcastic!! Hybrids for city people, pickups for the rest of us-lol So we can scrounge our own wood.

FYI, I have a Honda Insight, a lovely little hybrid car. It gets the same mileage in the city or the country. The high mileage comes from the very light weight of the vehicle plus the saving energy aspect while going downhill and slowing down and so on, which actually happens on the freeway as well as in the city. I live in the country myself (hay field across the street and other crops and cows down the street in both directions) although a traffic light has just been installed 3+ miles from my house and that bothers me. So perhaps you have your answer about your stove, but keep an open mind about hybrid cars! I get about 50 MPG from mine regardless of where I am driving. Also have a Ford Ranger pickup truck, was careful to get a 2WD since they get much better mileage. We drive the car when we don't need to haul firewood or bushels of manure, and we save a lot of gas.

 

[Todd]

So ya see guys, "I actually have a smokeless dragon 1985 model :lol:

I had a 1985 smokeless dragon myself until the firebox cracked last year.

Keep it. Burn it. What is da big deal, eh? Somebody been trying to sell ya a new stove or something, eh? The people here try to get people who are going to be buying a stove anyway to buy an EPA certified stove instead of an older one. Nothing wrong with that.

BB - Another hard headed old fart

I agree, keep it and burn it. A 1985 PE stove with baffle and glass is hardley what I would call a pre EPA smoke dragon anyway.