Ideal stove for ~800 square foot bungalow?

[cappaj]

I'm hoping I can get some guidance here - I don't know much about wood stoves and I've started to do some research but I'd love to get some experts to point me in the right direction.

My mom may need a new wood stove - her current stove is the primary heat source for her ~800 square foot bungalow but she's pretty sure it's on its last legs.

Based on what she's told me and what I've learned here are some more details:

• She needs a stove that can do sustained burns of 8 hours or so (basically she wants to be able to go to bed at night and not get up again to refill the stove until the morning).
• Her current chimney goes out the wall beside the stove (I don't know how long it is, I can't remember how far it continues outside the house - I think the hole in the wall is about 7' above the floor?). I think ideally, if she installs a new stove, she'd get a new chimney that goes straight up through the attic to the roof (I think that might be able to reach 15', which seems like an ideal height for a chimney?).
• The logs she burns can be up to 20-24" so the firebox would need to be big enough for that.
• She had a whole bunch of air sealing + new windows and doors installed last summer/fall, which has really helped keep the heat in.
• Function is way more important than how it looks (you can't see the stove's door from the main living areas, so a glass door or view of the fire isn't essential).

Any recommendations on how many BTUs we should shop for, or brands or vendors to look at? She's in the middle of nowhere near Mattawa, so we'll probably have added costs of delivery and installation.

She's looking at a Sedore Canadian, dent and scratch model for $2500 from a vendor near family members who could drive it to her. Seems like a really good price for that model, but I'm worried that might be overkill for what she needs (and ideally we'd spend a lot less than that anyways). I've seen Drolet models recommended here and elsewhere and they seem more reasonably priced - but I don't know if their burn times are long enough?

Thanks in advance for any advice and guidance! Let me know if any other details would be helpful and I can find out...

 

[SpaceBus]

Maybe something small like a Jotul 602 or Morso 2b standard? We have a 2b Classic for a well insulated 2 story 1200 sqft on a slab above grade. If your house is well insulated you will have coals left to reload on if you go to bed on a fresh load of hard woods. We used primarily marginal soft woods and still stayed warm. You may have some cold starts during the day if nobody will be home for ten hours at a time. A member recently installed a small Vermont Castings hybrid stove. I can't recall the model, but it's their smallest. Allegedly it has an eight hour burn time. There are some other small stoves, but those are my favorites.

 

[begreen]

How simple does the stove need to be and who will be maintaining it? A cat stove from Woodstock or BK will do the job, or consider a PE Super. Regardless of choice, a new EPA stove is going to need fully seasoned wood to burn properly. The log length is a blocking factor. If there is an existing pile it will probably have to be duct down to 16" to fit a smaller stove that is right-sized for the house.

 

[cappaj]

That may be one reason she's leaning towards the Sedore - it sounds like it'll burn anything of any size. I know she prefers to use fully seasoned wood, but sometimes to cut back on costs will use whatever wood she can get her hands on.

Are there any drawbacks to having a stove that's too big/too hot for a smaller home like hers?

EDIT: Also I forgot to answer begreen's first question - my mom will be the one using and maintaining it. She's currently using what I think is a Valley Comfort 95 (same stove discussed here: https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/worth-it-to-replace-valley-comfort-vc95-with-new-drolet.174004/)

EDIT 2: Also I should have been more specific about where she lives - she's north of Algonquin Park in Ontario. Winter temperatures can go down to -20 to -25 celsius (I think that's -10 to 0 fahrenheit-ish?).

 

[begreen]

That sounds like a false economy if she will end up burning more wood and have to open windows frequently in winter. That reduces the savings of wood heating. She might as well look for an old Lange or Jotul 118 if burning poorly seasoned wood. With a new stove she can burn less wood and put that savings into getting only fully seasoned wood. And she would get a nice fire view, that's better than TV.

Are there any drawbacks to having a stove that's too big/too hot for a smaller home like hers?

Depends on how hot she likes it.

 

[Highbeam]

Long burn times and low output are two performance measures that are usually at odds when heating with wood. To get a low output you need a small stove but to get a long burn time you need a large stove. Ack! what do you do? Trouble is that most modern stoves don't burn slowly. They have to burn hot in order to burn clean which means they burn fast.

Has your mom considered a pellet stove? or if power outages are a concern perhaps a gas stove (LPG or NG)? Heck, even a portable electric space heater can keep it comfortable in the morning after the fire has died out.

Is there no other form of heat in this home?

 

[cappaj]

That sounds like a false economy if she will end up burning more wood and have to open windows frequently in winter. That reduces the savings of wood heating. She might as well look for an old Lange or Jotul 118 if burning poorly seasoned wood. With a new stove she can burn less wood and put that savings into getting only fully seasoned wood. And she would get a nice fire view, that's better than TV.


Depends on how hot she likes it.

View attachment 245295

Right, that makes sense - thanks! I'll talk to her about harnessing the efficiency to save money long term.

I don't know if you saw my edits to my last post, just putting them here again in case:

EDIT: Also I forgot to answer begreen's first question - my mom will be the one using and maintaining it. She's currently using what I think is a Valley Comfort 95 (same stove discussed here: https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/worth-it-to-replace-valley-comfort-vc95-with-new-drolet.174004/)

EDIT 2: Also I should have been more specific about where she lives - she's north of Algonquin Park in Ontario. Winter temperatures can go down to -20 to -25 celsius (I think that's -10 to 0 fahrenheit-ish?).

I'll shop around a bit for smaller high-efficiency stoves, maybe PE or BK or Drolet.

How important is a blower?

 

[cappaj]

Long burn times and low output are two performance measures that are usually at odds when heating with wood. To get a low output you need a small stove but to get a long burn time you need a large stove. Ack! what do you do? Trouble is that most modern stoves don't burn slowly. They have to burn hot in order to burn clean which means they burn fast.

Has your mom considered a pellet stove? or if power outages are a concern perhaps a gas stove (LPG or NG)? Heck, even a portable electric space heater can keep it comfortable in the morning after the fire has died out.

Is there no other form of heat in this home?

I haven't looked at pellet stoves at all! Is there a general rule about the cost of a pellet stove vs. a regular wood stove (both to purchase and to operate)?

Having an electric space heater may be an option too, to keep that morning chill at bay until she gets the fire going again.

(And thank you everyone for your help so far, I really appreciate it!)

 

[Highbeam]

I haven't looked at pellet stoves at all! Is there a general rule about the cost of a pellet stove vs. a regular wood stove (both to purchase and to operate)?

Having an electric space heater may be an option too, to keep that morning chill at bay until she gets the fire going again.

(And thank you everyone for your help so far, I really appreciate it!)

Like wood stoves, pellet stoves are available in almost the same range of prices. 1000-4000$ with people that love particular models from all price points. There is more maintenance with a pellet stove but the heat output is more variable and can cycle on and off with a thermostat. Easy to last 24 hours per refill. Especially as a person ages, those pellets are easier to deal with than wood. Also, if she's buying wood she might find the cost of pellet fuel to be comparable. Many happy pellet stove operators in the pellet forum that can help you select a model.

 

[barnaclebob]

I haven't looked at pellet stoves at all! Is there a general rule about the cost of a pellet stove vs. a regular wood stove (both to purchase and to operate)?

Having an electric space heater may be an option too, to keep that morning chill at bay until she gets the fire going again.

(And thank you everyone for your help so far, I really appreciate it!)

One drawback to pellet stoves is that they need electricity to function.

 

[begreen]

Yes, I figured she lived in cold country. How old is your mom and is she in good health and physical condition? If she is elderly then keeping systems safe, reliable and simple should be a priority. There are pros and cons to any heating option. She'll need a reliable supply of fuel whether it is wood, pellets, gas, or electrons. You'll need to verify what is practically and reliably available. Whatever the choice, the system needs to remain manageable as she ages.
A few more questions:
1) Is there a backup heating system in the house or is the wood stove the only option?
2) Is natural gas an affordable option? Is propane affordable in the area? How are the electric rates?
3) What is the house floorplan like? Is it open, or is the stove in a room that is somewhat closed off from other parts of the house?
4) Tell us more about how well the VC95 has been working for her up to now. Does it have the blower option? What problems does it have?

 

[cappaj]

Yes, I figured she lived in cold country. How old is your mom and is she in good health and physical condition? If she is elderly then keeping systems safe, reliable and simple should be a priority. There are pros and cons to any heating option. She'll need a reliable supply of fuel whether it is wood, pellets, gas, or electrons. You'll need to verify what is practically and reliably available. Whatever the choice, the system needs to remain manageable as she ages.
A few more questions:
1) Is there a backup heating system in the house or is the wood stove the only option?
2) Is natural gas an affordable option? Is propane affordable in the area? How are the electric rates?
3) What is the house floorplan like? Is it open, or is the stove in a room that is somewhat closed off from other parts of the house?
4) Tell us more about how well the VC95 has been working for her up to now.

She's in her early 60s and physically active, so managing wood and logs for the next 10 years or so should be fine (I have a feeling at that point, she'll move closer to me or my siblings). I think getting her well-stocked with properly seasoned wood is doable, especially if it means a) saving money long-term and b) giving her dependable fuel for a dependable heat source (she's been heating with the current wood stove for about 5 years now, it came with the house when she moved in 5 years ago). And safe, reliable and simple are definitely priorities!

1) Wood stove is the heating source she always uses and prefers, but I *think* she has a propane furnace hooked up (I'll check on that). But definitely her preference is the wood stove for heating.
2) I looked up propane and electric costs a while ago and I remember it was cheaper to heat with wood, but I'd have to do some more digging to be sure.
3) I did a little sketch of the layout, I hope it makes sense.

4) VC95 is nice and big and can burn for a while, does a good job heating the whole house - but I believe it uses a lot of wood and isn't in great shape any more (I don't have more details on what exactly is wrong with it, I'll have to ask).

 

[begreen]

One option would be to replace it with a new cabinet-style stove. There would be a minimal learning experience that way, but the wood saving wouldn't be great if any at all. It sounds like she is young enough to enjoy a good stove. There will be a learning curve. Modern EPA stoves don't burn the same as the old V95. In the Drolet line the Escape 1800 would be sized right. It's listed as 2.4 cu ft but it's primarily an E/W loader so one doesn't ever load it to capacity. A blower will help with warm air circulation, but this could also be assisted by a fan on the floor at the far end of the hallway, blowing cooler air toward the stove room.

Do you know about how much wood per season she has been burning in previous winters?

 

[cappaj]

One option would be to replace it with a new cabinet-style stove. There would be a minimal learning experience that way, but the wood saving wouldn't be great if any at all. It sounds like she is young enough to enjoy a good stove. There will be a learning curve. Modern EPA stoves don't burn the same as the old V95. In the Drolet line the Escape 1800 would be sized right. It's listed as 2.4 cu ft but it's primarily an E/W loader so one doesn't ever load it to capacity. A blower will help with warm air circulation, but this could also be assisted by a fan on the floor at the far end of the hallway, blowing cooler air toward the stove room.

Do you know about how much wood per season she has been burning in previous winters?

I think I have the info somewhere about how much wood she uses in a season, I'll find that.

Quick question - what is a cabinet style stove? I think that's something different than a new EPA stove, is that correct? If so, I think an EPA stove like the Drolet you mentioned is the way to go - a learning curve should be fine (especially if it means saving on wood costs every year!).

EDIT: "~20 cord" per season is what I have written down for her current usage

 

[begreen]

A cabinet style stove typically has a sheet metal cabinet around the actual woodstove interior. They typically load via a side door which allows for long pieces of wood. They are also called circulator stoves. The Ashley is probably the most popular.
https://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200714909_200714909

By 20 cord/yr I hope that means face cords (1/3d full cord). Even so, that is a large amount of wood to heat a relatively small place. Is it possible to add some more insulation in the attic?

 

[cappaj]

A cabinet style stove typically has a sheet metal cabinet around the actual woodstove interior. They typically load via a side door which allows for long pieces of wood. They are also called circulator stoves. The Ashley is probably the most popular.
https://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200714909_200714909

By 20 cord/yr I hope that means face cords (1/3d full cord). Even so, that is a large amount of wood to heat a relatively small place. Is it possible to add some more insulation in the attic?

I'm pretty sure it's face cords. And I *think* that was her estimate from last year, before she did a bunch of air sealing and had insulation installed (including in the attic), so the house itself should be better at holding the heat in now.

She does have a crawlspace under the house that needs to be kept warm in the winter, which is achieved by using a couple fans to blow warm air down through holes in the floor - so I'm sure that takes some extra wood than just heating the living space alone would take.

 

[cappaj]

And actually, I guess I should have calculated the crawlspace into the square footage that gets heated - that's probably another 500 square feet or so (it's under everything except the two bedrooms, and is 2-4 feet high, and is a very wet space).

 

[CreosoteCowboy]

She's in the middle of nowhere near Mattawa

My main recollection of Mattawa is being extremely grateful to find the MacEwen station on the corner after driving the north side of Algonquin and nearly running out of gas. That's some big country up there.

 

[cappaj]

Looking at options, she'd still prefer something like the Drolet HT2000, because it has longer burn times and can do NS. And reading around, if that's the size that makes sense, the Englander 30-NC looks like a solid, simple stove that people say you can't go wrong with.

We'd love to source a scratch and dent or factory second model of whatever we buy, in order to save some money - any chance anyone knows where you can find that in Canada? (I saw a US retailer mentioned in this forum that ships factory seconds to your house, but not sure if there's something like that here? If not, I can watch for a sale at Home Depot or Rona or something.)

 

[begreen]

And actually, I guess I should have calculated the crawlspace into the square footage that gets heated - that's probably another 500 square feet or so (it's under everything except the two bedrooms, and is 2-4 feet high, and is a very wet space).

The crawlspace does not get included in the heated space. Is there insulation in the joist spaces under the floor?

 

[cappaj]

The crawlspace does not get included in the heated space. Is there insulation in the joist spaces under the floor?

No, there's no insulation down there. I wasn't sure if it should be included, since a lot of the heat generated by the stove is pumped down there (but I guess since it's uninsulated a lot of that heat will come back up into the living space anyways?).

 

[begreen]

Looking at options, she'd still prefer something like the Drolet HT2000, because it has longer burn times and can do NS. And reading around, if that's the size that makes sense, the Englander 30-NC looks like a solid, simple stove that people say you can't go wrong with.

Normally the HT2000 would be too large for this space, but this is in a very cold area and it sounds like the insulation is sub-par by modern Canadian standards. It's a good stove. It's easy to run and will burn well with a partial load of fuel in milder weather. It's less than half the price of the Sedore so even if she paid full price it would be a win.

Does she already have 4-6 cords of seasoned firewood stacked and covered?

No, there's no insulation down there. I wasn't sure if it should be included, since a lot of the heat generated by the stove is pumped down there (but I guess since it's uninsulated a lot of that heat will come back up into the living space anyways?).

How is heat "pumped" down there? Normally hot air does not go down at all. EDIT: just saw there are holes in the floors with fans! Is this a sealed area or is it open with vents to outdoors?

 

[cappaj]

I don't know what she has in the woodshed at the moment - I'm finding out right now what her options are for buying firewood in her area (she's been buying a cord here and a cord there, but I'd like to get a whole bunch of wood delivered and stacked and ready to go now if we can - apparently the price in her area has gone up recently from $80 a cord to $100, but I'm wondering if she can get a price break by buying a bunch all at once).

Good to know about the HT2000! Englander 30-NC seems to be similar quality, but can be even better priced I think?

 

[begreen]

80-100 a cord sounds like green wood pricing. Expect to pay twice that for seasoned wood but be sure it is actually seasoned. Most wood sold is not! It's worth paying more for truly seasoned wood. You get a lot more heat. The question is whether there is anyone in her area that sells truly seasoned wood and if so, how well it has been seasoned.

The 30NC is a good heater and would work. The HT2000 has a bit more to offer than the Englander with a taller base, better blower and baffle material, but both would get the job done. Note that the guts of the HT2000 are the same as the Enerzone 3.4 and the Osburn 2400 in case you are looking at scratch and dents. All are made by SBI.

If she has made significant improvements in insulation, window r-value and sealing then heating the place this year could be totally different from previous years. It may take a lot less heat and a smaller stove may be adequate and more efficient.

 

[cappaj]

Good to know about seasoned wood - I did a search for people selling firewood in her area and it's all around the same price, sometimes a little more for "half-seasoned" or "partially seasoned" wood.

If we can get her ahead of the curve and buy a bunch of cords of wood now, and stack in her woodshed, is that a good strategy to get more seasoned wood for the winter (because it'd sit stacked and drying for at least a few months)? And try to keep doing that in a first-in-first-out fashion so that she starts using drier wood?